David Slesinger talks to Howard Zinn - 2.2.2009
Reprehensor Mon, 03/09/2009 - 4:56pm
When questioned in this more personal one-to-one interview, Mr. Zinn seems to have a more moderate, fleshed-out opinion on 9/11 Truth. Thanks to David for making another attempt;
http://911courage.blogspot.com/2009/03/david-slesinger-interviews-howard-zinn.html
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What do we know now about Barry Jennings?
Zinn knows nothing. Not surprising.
Has anyone found out more about B Jennings????
Thank you Dave!
please join WeAreChangeBoston.org. we have been going to MIT with huge display boards that prove the inaccuracies of the official story. come join us sometime. i think we may have found one of your fliers that challenges the students to question the official story. it is a great flier!
I hope to secure an interview with my former professor Chomsky
Even though I now live in Baltimore. Please be in touch davidslesinger@yahoo.com
Zinn
Zinn has a certain practical wisdom about him. "We can prove we drop a bomb someone and kill 25 civilians," I paraphrase. And that's true: we can end the Iraq Occupation without a 9/11 Investigation.
However, watching Zinn is irritatingly frustrating as he fumbles, jumping through extraordinary loopholes of contradiction. He gets a good roar from the crowd as he goes on about ending the war mentality, not just war itself. 9/11 Truth ends the war mentality. It cuts to the root. It shows how shallow the system is. It reveals its inherent slavery.
Zinn's history of activism is to be respected, however 9/11 Truth is too far an abyss for him. Watch the video - he says so himself.
Dave - that was a great interview! Thanks!
Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence.
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Really?
"And that's true: we can end the Iraq Occupation without a 9/11 Investigation."
So, how is that working out for you? Obama, the man who said we had to change the mindset that got us into Iraq, has just signed on for staying in Iraq with up to 50,000 troops till the end of the SOFA agreement, he called Mr. Bush right before making that announcement to make sure it was alright in the first place, and he is "surging" in Afghanistan (what he calls "the right war" based on ... 9/11 no less).
Currently he has the support of the pro-war right wingers and now he has the sheepish support of all of those "activist" progressive voices from the left who protested Bush.
So we can end the war in Iraq? Without exposing the whole thing as a fraud with 9/11? That's fascinating. Please explain that one to me again...
willyloman
You missed the point. All wars end eventually. There is enough of an anti-war movement in the country that wants to focus on Iraq, like Mr. Zinn. And that movement will eventually end the war. Would 9/11 Truth end the war? Yes. It has the power to end ALL wars (maybe). Do you think I am against 9/11 Truth? That's so laughable, you have no idea. Seriously. No idea.
Save your vitriol for a more worthy target. I am not an Obama supporter, nor do I think he alone is the cover-all Messiah. It is up to each and every one of us individually to make the change.
Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence.
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Vitriol?
"All wars end eventually."
Except the "endless war on terror"... which of course is the whole point of the Neo-con/Neo-lib agenda... and perhaps the "war on drugs" which has been a cash cow for decades now....
"Save your vitriol for a more worthy target..."
That's not "vitriol", that's simply supported disagreement. How can we expect to honestly discuss differences of opinion without supporting our arguments? I basiclly just pointed out that the anti-war movement has not been successful at this point, and in fact, the Neo-con agenda has been picked up by the current administration and democratic congress.... leaving us in even worse shape than before the election.
not only are we staying in Iraq, but we are now surging in Afghanistan, stepping up strikes in Pakistan, and even talking about putting troops on the ground in Mexico. And this is our "Change" administration?
And that is what you call "vitriol"?
I call it realism.
I like your phrazing: "9/11 Truth ends the war...."
"9/11 Truth ends the war mentality. It cuts to the root. It shows how shallow the system is. It reveals its inherent slavery."--
Haha thanks
Recovering English major, trying to get the Led out!
Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence.
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Because...
...it's 'hard work'?
Sounds a bit like Dubya?! I admire Mr. Zinn for his teaching and illuminations but feel he's really missing the boat on 9/11. 9/11 is not that hard to figure out. Not now. We can look at David Chandlers' simple proof -- acknowledged by NIST, no less -- and see that for no less than 2.25 seconds WTC7 was in absolute free-fall. How is THAT possible? Hmmm... Now grab onto that FACT like a pit bull with a pork rind and start mixing in all the collaborative evidence: physical, eyewitness, circumstantial and anecdotal and the picture becomes quite clear.
One has to allow oneself to see it and then it's there.
Too complicated?
Nice work David, but it seems like progress on this issue with Zinn is at a snail's pace. I worry when people hide behind barriers like it's too complicated. That's how things like the single bullet theory and failure to look at the Church findings buried the JFK murder. We have no chance of stopping the wars without a break in the dam of 911. The people of this country and the world and the history of the world never have, and until a major exposure like the 911 lie can be revealed the average person will never join in a critical mass to change the world. So we need a spot at all the tables. Thanks for bringing up Barry Jennings I can't believe we still don't know how he died.
A break in the dam
I've noticed a few instances where the 9/11 false-flag discussion has been allowed (cautiously) to proceed outside of the "9/11 forum" (aka "the dungeon") on DemocraticUnderground.com I bring this up because I get the feeling there is just an opening on the left/progressive side, with a bit more interest and willingness to listen to the arguments. I think those of us who can should be pressing a bit harder on this left of center "progressive" and "anti war" audience. This is exactly what David Slesinger is showing us here.
That said the problem is there are many people -- even people who are activists within the 9/11 movement -- who get confused about what is verifiable evidence, on one hand, as opposed to "opinion" (even informed or authoritative opinion) on the other. We have witnesses who heard bombs at the WTC; we have witnesses who saw molten metal beneath the WTC; we have micro-spheres in the WTC dust; we have data direct from the NTSB and FBI that is completely inconsistent with the physical damage at the Pentagon; we have multiple eye-witnesses who corroborate one another on the main points of what they saw happen at the Pentagon, all of which also contradicts the physical damage at the Pentagon. None of that is "speculative" -- it is all quite factual -- and far from exhaustive. Can they be presented simply and directly as established verifiable facts, not as theories or opinions? Are these facts compelling, persuasive and convincing? This is what we need to be aiming for -- simple, clear and direct aimed at people who are already predisposed to end the war.
While I'm at it, I want to advocate that activists stop saying "9/11 was an inside job" -- not that this isn't true but we need to be more precise. Saying "9/11 was a false flag attack" is a different way of saying the same thing and opens the door for discussion because there are still many people who don't know what "false flag" means. This rouses curiosity and creates the possibility of a teachable moment. It is true "9/11 was an inside job" -- it is also true that there may be many people on the "inside" who would like to see justice done.
Just my 2¢.
For me the significance of this video includes:
1. Zinn is willing to support a place at the table for 9/11 truth advocates. He stated that as long as the conference has at least 22 presenters that we should be allowed to speak. Please contact me if you want to help make a list of such conferences and lobby for inclusion of our speakers. Big time left gatekeepers are likely to be less open minded than grassroots followers who would have no apologies to make. That is why we would go to these conferences.
2. Zinn asserts our case is too complicated. I urge us to discuss what single pieces of evidence standing alone are each sufficient to move us beyond whatever threshold we are seeking (real investigation, convictions, etc.)
3. All leftists should be susceptible to the argument that proof of inside job should undercut racist stereotypes of Muslim terrorists.
4. We should be able to find other major leftists who would agree to the importance of looking not just at civil liberties, but also resisting full blown police state with martial law. Truthers, leftists, and conservatives should be able to agree to work in coalition on this issue without getting bogged down in their disagreements.
# 2
WTC7 - not very complicated at all if you think about it!
Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence.
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
I start the conversation
I start the conversation with "That false flag known as 911." This way they only shut down on the second half of the sentence instead of the first.
911 Truth Ends 911 Wars
""9/11 was an inside job"" we should stop saying it?
I think it's time to be confident and kick these old worn out peace activists in the ass! Well that's one side of the coin...the other is the softly softly approach on the political leaders/academics which is working.
We need to try many things and many ways to get attention and it seems to me different strokes for different folks is the right course of action.
The "inside job" term is absolutely perfect for our best evidence, that is of controlled demolition of the 3 towers!
If Zinn has decided that we are in the too hard basket, well that's very sad for him. I see he atleast supports our right to exist now that's sooo big of him...thanks Howard.
It's the 11th tomorrow(US) so get out there and find the new brave activists that we need to replace people like Howard and his cowards.
Regards John
9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!
www.truthaction.org.au
An Analogy...
Zinn claims a 9/11 investigation would be "too complicated".
Anaology:
1. A group of thugs commit a horrific mass murder in say, Chicago.
2. A commission is formed to investigate the crime.
Afterwards, two of the head investigators admit the investigation was incomplete.
3. Because the true perpetrators were never caught, many, many more murders are
committed by them - and continue to this day.
With the above situation, would Howard Zinn say that the original crime is "too complicated" to investigate?
What is it with Zinn and Chomsky on 911? Why the giant blind-spots in these
otherwise highly perceptive minds?
It doesn't add up. Something stinks.
One thing I noticed...
... is that he doesn't really say that he thinks bin Laden knocked down the towers in so many words (or did I miss it?).
It seems to me that he and Chomsky are both floating in some nebulous region somewhere. Zinn is certainly capable of looking into the evidence out there and understanding it. If I can, he can. I think he is insinuating that it is going to be impossible to PROVE to the American people with so many institutions stacked up against us. The republicans, the democrats, the congress, the White House, the media conglomerates, defense department, the telecoms industry, IRS, department of commerce.... ect. ect. ect.
We have tons of evidence, but people have to be immersed in ALL of it to come to a conclusion (at least I know that was the way it happened for me).
So his comment about the plane dropping bombs and killing 25 people refers to, unfortunately, attention span and the lack of time and exposure we have with the population at large.
I like Zinn. But I agree with you. He is underestimating people. I also think he, like others, is concerned with being dismissed as a "Truther". The way they have worked it, once that happens, credibility suffers in their minds. It's a fact we can't ignore. Zinn was polite enough to say it, but I think it is commendable that he sat down and had the chat in the first place.
The blind spot is not without a reason
Ciu Bono? Who benefits? Chomsky and Zinn and Moore and Goodman they all keep their status and lifestyles. They are not blind , they know the power of the real darkness and they are in fear of it. I am sure they rationalize it with thoughts about how they can still be effective and national security and the average person couldn't handle the truth and this is how the world works and has always worked and I have my family to think of. These highly perceptive minds know the truth and their own limits as well.
You both make good points...
...willyloman and peacefulwarrior.
I'm not sure if Zinn is afraid to be labeled a truther though... if it were only that, I would hope that the man has
enough presence of mind and character to know he has limited time left on earth, and
he might as well go out telling the truth. He's demonstrated his honesty and character in other areas of his work.
I'm more inclined to consider, as peacefulwarrior pointed out, that he is aware of the dark, pervasive
powers (some say earthly, some say spiritual as well) that really pull the strings - as being at last one reason
for both Zinn and Chomsky to be so frustratingly nebulous about 9/11.
Most have seen the following quote, but it's worth reposting:
"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
- Woodrow Wilson
Open Letter to Howard Zinn...
I accidentally double-posted my original post - and cannot delete it... so
I might as well fill it with an open letter to Howard Zinn I wrote a few months ago....
I emailed it to him. Surprise: no response.
Dear Mr. Zinn,
I was surprised and disappointed to read your recent comments opposing
the immediate need for 9/11 truth.
Perhaps you've been misquoted. I certainly hope so.
Did you state that after a mere 7 years, the unsolved mass murder
of thousands of people on 9/11 is simply a thing of the "past"?
That the still reverberating significance of that horrific day has
“no practical political significance”?
Did you actually proclaim, Mr. Zinn, that after just 86 months, this nightmarish,
Earth shattering and still very current event, should be relegated to some stale historical record?
Apparently, 9/11 happened so long ago that you've forgotten that it
led to some tragic, and very current, circumstances.
As a refresher, 9/11 led to:
~ the illegal invasion of Iraq, Afganistan, etc... causing to the deaths
of 4,000 + U.S. and other soldiers, and the murder of over 1 million Iraqi soldiers
and civilians.
~ the trampling of our Constitutional Rights...
~ the economy-destroying military spending to support these illegal wars...
~ and on and on... all of which continue to this present moment...
If investigating the cause of these present day tragedies is not the "most important"
thing we can do, then pray tell Mr. Zinn, what is?
Are you really suggesting that only 2,637 days after this atrocity ripped open
a gaping, still unhealed wound in the Heart of America (and much of the world),
we simply slap a patch on it and move on?
If so, go meet with the thousands of 9/11 family members and tell them that, sir.
Share it with the 9/11 heroic first responders, who are, to this second, sick or dying as
a result of breathing toxic dust while bravely performing their duty on that black day.
Tell it to the parents in New York City, whose children today have lung illnesses,
because they were told by their government that the air was safe to breath
during the days following 9/11.
Gather the thousands of Iraqi orphans together, as well as all the children of every nation,
and tell them a bedtime story about how investigating the truth of 9/11, and preventing
future false-flag events, future wars, have no immediate importance to them.
And please, Mr Zinn, while sharing your opinions with these people about how archaic 9/11 is,
make sure you look them in the eyes.
Then notice how much 9/11 is in the "past" to them.
Sincerely,
Alex Cameron
Well said!
"If you don't stand for something your gunna fall for anything" JCM....Zinn stands for the obvious and the non-threatening, in other words for nothing of importance!
Yesterdays hero comes to mind.....we should move on from Zinn and who cares if he moves on from us!
We don't need their influence, they have none....is that not obvious, Howard?
Kindest regards John
9/11 24/7 UNTIL JUSTICE!!
www.truthaction.org.au
Good Quote
"So, it's a matter of knowledge and ignorance, ya know."
Vincit Omnia Veritas
By the way...
Good job David.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
"It's too complicated" my ASS!
What if we had mainly been hearing from 9/11truth activists at these types of conferences, but Iraq anti-war activists had been marginalized and not treated as "equals at the table". Possibly we would know less about the atrocities committed in Iraq, possibly even considering the situation as "too complicated", but 9/11 would be considered obviously straight forward and easy to prove. Duh! The video speaks for itself. 9/11 speakers need equal treatment and speaking time so that people realized it is not complicated!! Come on Zinn, I know you are more intelligent than that! It's so simple a child could "get it".
Jennings
We'll come out with a website soon. We paid our respects to Dylan Avery. Once it's out, we'll banner with the website URL outside newspapers and schools of journalism. Stay in touch with me at davidslesinger@yahoo.com
WeAreChangeBoston: Howard Zinn's autographs WTC7 info card and..
WeAreChangeBoston.org
Zinn is uneducated and he doesn't even know it
Zinn is uneducated and he doesn't even know it. Same with Chompsky, Moore and Goodman.
These people have absolutely no clue about simple high school physics - and yet they think they are educated. They are not.
Here's a simple physics lesson for you Howard, Norm, Michael and Amy:
Run through an empty swimming pool. Time yourself.
Now run through the same swimming pool filled waist high with water. Time yourself.
Now imagine running through the same swimming pool filled waist high with honey. Time yourself.
Now imagine running through the same swimming pool filled with wet cement. Time yourself.
Notice anything?
Resistance slows things down. The greater the resistance, the more it slows down the passage of material through it.
70 stories of intact structural steel are very resistant to the passage of upper stories through them.
The upper stories cannot pass through these 70 intact stories at free fall speed.
I know you don't understand this - because you are in love with your "political savvy" and you haven't a clue that you are totally uneducated with respect to the material world.
This is not a slurr or an insult. This is a simple observation of the imbalance of your education.
Reread my simple physics lesson above. It is NOT complicated. You do not have to be an architect, structural engineer or physicist to understand it.
Good luck. May the Force be with you when your eyes open.
The campaign for 9/11 Truth
The campaign for 9/11 Truth will be won without the support of many prominent people, Zinn being one of them. We must continue to wake up our friends, families, and co-workers one person at a time. It was a nice attempt WAC Boston but he chuckled and you pleaded and it looked weak. Forget Zinn. Convert everyone else in that room; half of them already are. Let Zinn see that magnificent grow before his denying eyes.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Carry on, with hope
Agree 100%. There are plenty of opportunities for me to brood over the wilfully ignorant, or just plain ignorant, prominent people. I prefer to seek out fresh converts - all the time! You never know who you might reach: one lady I gave some DVDs said she would pass them on to her daughter, who is an editor at a major news channel. Academics and building industry professionals are likely worth 1000 bought & controlled media commentators. Give them the truth and hope for success.
When I approach media professionals and mainstream politicians
I first acknowledge they risk their position if they speak publicly on this, but it's important to understand the issues in case the situation changes, so they can be ready to come forward with knowledge of the situation.
Coward Zinn.
Coward Zinn.
Next project?
Perhaps his next project should be entitled, 'A Sheeple's History of the United States.'
narrowmindedness rather than cowardice
Since most leftgatekeepers have exhibited courage throughout their lives, I prefer to call the problem a matter of narrowmindedness or excessive ideology. Blowback is everything an anti-imperialist could ever want, as long as they don't care about the truth. That's why our emphasis to left gatekeepers should be on issues they admit to caring about, racism and civil liberties.
Thank you
.
Not buying it
I appreciate this interview with Zinn, but I'm not buying Zinn's response. That 9-11 was a false flag operation is eminently provable, and not at all complicated. What is complicated about steel framed buildings "collapsing" at free fall speeds? He spuriously claims it is a matter of degree (how much time the Left should give to 9-11 Truth), when in reality the problem has been that the Left totally blocks us out, engages in ridicule, sarcasm and ad hominem against us, repeatedly. So I think David went too easy on Zinn. And a question not asked is, Why did Zinn endorse Griffin's first 9-11 book, if he apparently now finds the matter "too complicated" to be worth devoting any time to? And he doesn't come off looking very good as a historian anymore, either. What kind of a historian, particularly a revisionist historian like Zinn, simply stops talking about the events of a pivotal day in history because the events are "too complicated"? The truth is, Zinn believes in the Left's favored "blowback" theory -- as he made clear in this interview, a theory for which there is not a shred of evidence, yet he continues to espouse it, not finding IT "too complicated." It does endear him to many of his readers, however, who are similarly in denial of the PROVEN fact that 9-11 was a false flag operation.