We Might Be Wrong

Jon Gold
12/4/2008

During my recent debate with 9/11 Debunker Pat Curley, in his closing statement, after listing a plethora of different theories from a whole spectrum of individuals, including many I do not endorse, he asked, "would anybody in the 9/11 Truth Movement say, “well, OK, we were wrong?" if, in fact, a new investigation found that we were. He then answered his own question by saying, "and the answer is “of course not," so stop pretending that all you want is another investigation - you want another investigation that comes to the conclusions that you believe."

Just to show him that we're not the close-minded people he thinks we are, here's a list of some things we might be wrong about.

We might be wrong to think that people like Dick Cheney and George Bush should have wanted to investigate anything and everything that led to the horrible attacks of 9/11, instead of trying to "limit the scope" of those investigations, and fight against the families who wanted them, and rightfully so.

We might be wrong to think that our intelligence agencies should have known something was up because of the suspicious trading that took place prior to 9/11. Trading that they monitor.

We might be wrong to think that ALL of the suspicious trading should have been thoroughly investigated by the 9/11 Commission, and that their conclusion that the trading was "innocuous" is wrong.

We might be wrong to think that the multitude of warnings our Government received prior to 9/11 should have caused people within the Bush Administration to warn the American public, and take precautions to make sure the attacks didn't succeed.

We might be wrong to think that former Atty Gen. of New York, Eliot Spitzer, should have responded to the Justice for 9/11 Citizens' Complaint and Petition delivered to his office in 2004.

We might be wrong to think that a good friend of Dick Cheney's, Lee Hamilton, someone known for covering up other things like the October Surprise, and the Iran/Contra Affair, should not have been made the co-chairman of the 9/11 Commission.

We might be wrong to think that people like Robert Mueller should have answered all of the families' questions when they were asking him to his face.

We might be wrong to think that someone with so many conflicts of interest with the Bush Administration, Philip Zelikow, should not have been put in charge of the 9/11 Commission.

We might be wrong to be concerned about a statement by former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland that says, "as each day goes by, we learn that this government knew a whole lot more about these terrorists before Sept. 11 than it has ever admitted."

We might be wrong to think that the multiple wargames taking place on the morning of 9/11 caused confusion on the ground, and that ALL of them should have been thoroughly investigated.

We might be wrong to think that Donald Rumsfeld should have responded in writing to former Rep. Cynthia McKinney about her question regarding the wargames taking place that morning.

We might be wrong to think that the most defended airspace in the world should not have been left completely undefended 34 minutes after the second tower was hit, when everyone in the world knew America was under attack.

We might be wrong to think that either Dick Cheney, Richard Myers, Ralph Eberhart or Donald Rumsfeld somehow impeded the air response that morning.

We might be wrong to think that members of our Government should not meet with an alleged financier of the attacks without being brought forward publicly to testify about those meetings.

We might be wrong to think that elements within our Government and others collaborate with the Pakistani ISI to initiate terrorist attacks around the world in order to create a "strategy of tension."

We might be wrong to think that someone like Shyam Sunder should have met with people like Dr. Steven Jones to at least look at the information he has collected.

We might be wrong to think that the Bush Administration should not have done everything in their power to cover up possible Saudi Arabian involvement.

We might be wrong to think that Israeli spies in this country prior to 9/11 should have been investigated thoroughly.

We might be wrong to think that someone like Khalil Bin Laden, Osama Bin Laden's brother, a person with alleged ties to terrorism, should not have been allowed to leave the country so soon after 9/11 without having been thoroughly investigated.

We might be wrong to think that the 28 redacted pages of the Joint Congressional Inquiry should be de-classified.

We might be wrong to think that whistleblowers should not be retaliated against, or gagged because they were trying to do the right thing.

We might be wrong to think that the Secret Service should have immediately moved the President out of Emma E. Booker Elementary that morning in order to protect him, the children, and the school faculty present.

We might be wrong to think that the President should have immediately wanted to deal with the occurring crisis instead of continuing with a photo-op.

We might be wrong to think that 9/11 should not have been used to take away our civil liberties, and start pre-emptive wars against countries that had nothing to do with the attacks.

We might be wrong to think that the murder of 2,973 people should be treated as a crime instead of as an "act of war."

We might be wrong to think that the media in this country should cover things like family members calling for an entirely new investigation on two separate occasions.

We might be wrong to think that everyone that was in the PEOC should have been brought forward to testify publicly and under oath about what happened that morning.

We might be wrong to think that Dick Cheney and George Bush should have been made to testify publicly and under oath.

We might be wrong to think that there shouldn't be a single family member with doubts about how their loved one was murdered, and who was responsible for it.

We might be wrong to think that the heroes of 9/11 should be given the health care that they need, and that those who lied about the air quality should be held accountable.

We might be wrong to think that if people acted either incompetently or criminally within our Government, then they should be held accountable, as opposed to being promoted or rewarded.

We might be wrong to think that the event that created the "Post-9/11 World" should be THOROUGHLY investigated to make sure all of the actions taken in the name of that day are justified, responsible, and in we, the people's best interests.

In conclusion, I'd like to say that yes, we may very well be wrong. On the other hand, we may very well be right. If we are right, and I'm certain that we are, at least about SOME of it, would you Pat Curley, would you Mark Roberts, would you Ron Wieck, would you James Bennett, would you Troy Sexton, would you Jim Miegs, would you Michael Shermer, would you Chip Berlet, would you members of JREF... would you... would you... hmmm... are there any more debunkers than that?

Would you admit you were wrong? Would you apologize to all of the families you have disrespected? Would you apologize to all of the first responders you have disrespected? Would you apologize to all of the sincere members of the 9/11 Truth Movement you have either slandered, harassed, and/or threatened? Either by directly taking part in these acts, or by promoting them? Would you apologize to the 9/11 Truth Movement for trying to paint us all as crazies by focusing on the fringiest of the fringe?

Would you? Of course not so stop pretending like you know anything about 9/11 because you certainly do not.

This...

Song keeps going through my head.

Edit: Does everyone understand the purpose of this article? No, I am NOT saying that we ARE wrong. I'm simply pointing out how it seems we have been right about most everything, but are willing to admit we "may" be wrong. Something Pat doesn't seem to think we're capable of doing. By the way... has any "debunker" ever admitted to any of you that they are wrong? Surely you must have had an experience where you prove them wrong, and they are unwilling to admit it. I love how most things "debunkers" say about us actually applies to them.

I've come to the conclusion that "debunkers" are essentially 9/11 Truth Tabloids. Nothing they say is true, but because of human nature, and curiosity, we are "concerned" about what they say even though we shouldn't be.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

Thanks Jon

What a wonderful example of the creative use of anger.

Thank you for taking the time to reflect, write and post this.

My experience with "debunkers" generally falls into three categories. The first group, and the group that I consider the most honest, fall silent after they realize that they know virtually nothing about the events of 9/11/01. I gently steer them to web sites, books, dvds and other resources so they can investigate for themselves. I also give them my contact information to continue the dialogue, most have yet to do so, including my high school physics teacher who I ran into a few weeks back (he did suggest that I write a book, though).

The second group, who I define as the casual deniers, become increasingly agitated as I recite the overwhelming evidence against the OCT and their cognitive dissonance manifests itself physically. If they don't just turn and run away (no joke, this has happened to me more than once), then I try to find an issue that we have in common and work from there. My hope here is that if they have enough exposure over a period of time, they will fight through their fear and actually look for the truth. I also encourage them to stay in touch with me. One of my soccer buddies, while continuing to email me about the team we play on, has yet to respond to the information I've given him, but it has only been a few weeks.

The last group, who I define as the deep deniers, rarely admit to being wrong even when it is clear that they are. Instead, they use a variety of rhetorical tactics to evade the facts, physics or logic that they cannot counter rationally. This group is made up of two sub-groups, those who have deep emotional blocks and those who obviously know that what they are saying is false, and take the position they do for reasons known only to them. I will take some time with the former, the latter I try to disconnect with as civilly as possible as they are a complete waste of time unless you need to counter their "arguments" in front of an audience.

Fortunately, I am blessed with very thick skin and can smile in the face of ignorant and abusive people (I've had decades of practice). Most of these people just cannot accept that something so far outside their conception of reality could have taken place. As other pillars of their reality collapse, like the failing false economy, the shocks may make them more open to 911 truth if we have engaged them in a friendly, respectful way. On the other hand, if they feel that they have been castigated by a member of the truth movement, they are likely to crawl deeper into their bunker of denial when confronted by this issue.

Thanks again for your years of hard work.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

The purpose of your article

The purpose of your article was loud and clear Gold.

You could also answer it this way.

Question: "Would anybody in the 9/11 Truth Movement say, “well, OK, we were wrong?"

Why? Isn't it obvious? Because we'd all sleep much better at night knowing that our own government WASN'T in the business of plotting the murder of its own citizens. It's not some sort of mental defense mechanism to believe what we believe because it's actually a very disturbing reality if you believe it to be true. This isn't the fantasy of some cult which has dreamt up the scenario that space aliens are going to swoop in on anti-gravity machines and rescue them from impending disaster. It's not comforting to believe what we believe. The better question might be, why wouldn't we want to be proven wrong?

I'm sure that the cynics would reply that guys like Alex Jones would be out of business. That all depends on his true motives. Alex says he doesn't care about the money, he just wants to save the country. His detractors would argue that he's a huckster looking to capitalize on others naivety. The problem is that the vast majority of us stand nothing to gain from joining the patriot movement. I've never made a dollar off of it. The only thing that I've probably earned is ending up on some pointless government watch list labeled as a "subversive" of some sort. The point being that most us didn't choose this path because it's fun or something to do. We're assuming this risk for the sake of our country and our preserving our most cherished liberties. That's payment enough for me. Though it's terribly sad that we must now fight to regain what was once rightfully ours to begin with.

Also, one might argue that it's the debunkers who have so willingly accepted the official version of 9/11 while denying all alternatives because it is they who cannot handle the notion that they're government could harm them for political gains. Why would any debunker ever want to believe otherwise? Now there's a perfect question.

plus eleventy

great post, thank you.

We were wrong

to have believed George Bush, when he spoke to the nation, from Booker Elementary, and said that he would commit the full resources of the federal government, to investigate, or find out who committed this terrible act.

Do you remember when...?

That liar said that he saw the plane hitting the tower? Can you remember his face after he was told something and how he got thoughtful and distracted for long minutes? Just look at his face, the impression you get is that he knew what was happening. Have debunkers forgotten Mineta's testimony? Has Rumsfeld ever said "flight 93 was shot down"? Has Silverstein ever said "pull it!"? If debunkers don't want to discuss the facts or don't want to listen to witnesses' testimonies, why don't they pay attention to the records and interviews of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Silverstein, Giuliani etc etc etc etc? We might be wrong, but WE ARE TOTALLY RIGHT WHEN WE SAY "WE HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT 911"!

Fact vs. Hypothesis

Wrong about what? The five NORAD Papers articles posted at www.DNotice.org have already proved the official narrative of 9/11 to be an obvious lie. NORAD's air sovereignty mission was operational on 9/11. This is not a hypothesis, but historical fact as documented in articles published before September 11, 2001. The citations for those articles can be found in the five NORAD Papers articles.

The sooner the 9/11 Truth Movement concentrates on facts and not hypotheses, the sooner the official narrative of 9/11 will be seen as a lie by the public at large.

It should also be remembered that the 9/11 Truth Movement wants a new investigation to determine who specifically in the Federal government (and those they associated with outside of the Federal government) were involved in the attacks on 9/11, not if 9/11 was an inside job.

Dean Jackson/webmaster DNotice.org
Washington, DC

That's why...

I wrote this.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?

LIHOP, MIHOP and Institutional Failure

LIHOP? Why LIHOP when MIHOP is safer? Do you really think the sociopaths would allow real terrorists fly over Indian Point Nuclear Facility? Do you really think the sociopaths would allow a commercial airliner get any where near the Pentagon unless they knew it wouldn't crash into the side of the Pentagon that housed the offices of Donald Rumsfeld and the JCS? By the way, the Pentagon missile batteries (all six of them on 9/11) would automatically lock on targets and fire. Institutional failure is not a variable in this instance.

By the way, under the official 9/11 narrative institutional failure doesn't even apply to NORAD because NORAD wasn't supposed to have been monitoring and controling American skies on 9/11. Of course, thanks to The NORAD Papers (go to www.DNotice.org and read the five articles on NORAD), we now know that not only did NORAD monitor and control American (and Canadian) airspace on 9/11, but that NORAD was also tasked with identifying aircraft flying through American airspace that filed flight plans with the FAA (any aircraft flying above 18,000 feet).

The sociopaths had to say that NORAD didn't monitor American airspace because no one would believe that a military organization could be so incompetent in its failure to monitor four obviously errant aircraft. Well, now we know that NORAD did indeed monitor and control American airspace, which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that 9/11 was a MIHOP operation.

Dean Jackson/webmaster DNotice.org
Washington, DC

You may be wrong but you may be right...

Ron Wieck, on the BBC Conspiracy Files - - 9/11: The Third Tower, stated, "There is nothing that could falsify their beliefs." This is incorrect. I've told the JREF members on many occasions what it would require to falsify my 9/11 beliefs,

"First, someone needs to demolish a building(i.e. a steel-frame high-rise) with fire and impact damage the way WTC 1,2 and 7 were destroyed. The collapse must mirror the dynamics of the actual collapse of those buildings. That would falsify my belief that those buildings must have been destroyed by explosive charges. Where can I see experimental verification? Words on paper don't count."

Ryan Mackey responded, "If you understood the physics, you'd accept that this is unnecessary....Mathematics is a way of experimentation."

"You may be right, I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for
It's to late to fight, it's to late to change me
You may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right." :)

Excellent Jon.

EDIT - meant to post this as a non-reply post.

On the subject of the "debunkers," this probably not a bad moment to re-post what I believe is the best essay written on the subject of "debunkers," from the now-elusive Seve_B in February of 2007. I bookmarked this one:

______

When is everyone going to start ignoring these "debunkers"?

It's been awhile since I've gone over to SLC or JREF and read through their forums until the last couple of days, and now I know why: it is a complete waste of time. These people are either paid to oppose us or simply not willing or able to look at and understand the evidence. Either way they are beyond help and you have absolutely zero chance of converting any of them.

To those that fear newbies could stumble upon SLC and be convinced that the OCT is true, I can assure you there is little chance of that happening. The OCT defenders over there do not present persuasive arguments, and spend most of their time spewing ad hominems instead of addressing the real issues. The latest move by Troy of WV - posting Korey Rowe's personal cell phone number and encouraging people to call and harrass him - is but one example of the extreme vindictiveness these people feel towards us. My question again is why even engage these people in debate?

Let them spend all day congratulating themselves on their intellectual prowess. We should be spending our time reaching out to those that have never been exposed to the truth. When I make an effort to reach out to someone new, I am surprised to find that virtually every single time they have never even heard the SUGGESTION that 9/11 is anything other than Bin Laden + 19 hijackers. These are the people we should be concerned about. The mainstream media is not helping, so we have to do it. Forget the debunkers.

Plus, you should have confidence that any newbie who is truly interested in investigating 9/11 for themselves is going to look at more than one source for information. I know I did. I looked for months at all of the "debunking" material I could find. I remember reading through the "Loose Change Viewer's Guide" and breaking out in laugter. I don't know if they have revised it since, but at the time it was a childish attempt at debunking Loose Change. Again, have confidence that newbies will be smart enough to look at the "debunking" materials and see them for what they are - total crap.

In the off chance that a particular newbie is persuaded by the debunking materials, that is 100% fine with me. Coming to grips with the fact that 9/11 was an inside job isn't an easy thing to do. One of my friends used to get angry during debates with me on the subject because he could never effectively counter my points. The last time we debated he just flat out told me he thought what I was saying was legitimate, but that he "didn't want to believe it" because (1) he doesn't want to think our government could be so evil, and (2) if the truth did get out, it would have horrible consequences for our economy, etc. I said ok, and haven't brought it up in conversation since. Like I said, it's not for everyone. It's definitely easier (at the moment) for Americans to live life believing the OCT. Whether that remains true in the future remains to be seen.

For those that want to practice their debating skills and refine their arguments over at the debunking forums, this is only an admirable use of time if you are actually going out into the real world and using those refined skills and arguments to spread the truth to newbies. If you aren't applying your skills in the real world, you probably just enjoy debating the debunkers as a sort of hobby. Please don't. Time is precious in this movement, and your time would be much more effectively spent reaching out to those that have never heard of 9/11 Truth.

Finally, if you ignore the debunkers, the ones that aren't getting paid to do it may just get bored, stop their "debunking" activities altogether and go find something better to do. After all, they don't have the same challenge we have of reaching out to newbies, because the mainstream media spreads their message for them. Can you imagine Mark Roberts going around New York handing out DVDs purporting to prove Osama was behind it? People would tell him "Yeah, I know, I saw that on CNN last night, and the night before that, and the night before that." In other words, because newbies by definition already believe the OCT, the debunkers won't have anything to do with their time if those of us that are already converted stop engaging them in debate.

This blog may be a little late because right now there is a thread over at SLC about how quiet it's been around there and JREF lately, while dz is over here fighting to keep the 9/11 Blogger server up and running due to heavy traffic. We are making progress, people, and ignoring the debunkers can only help.
http://www.911blogger.com/node/6905

I concur!

If fire and impact damage can bring down steel-framed high-rise buildings in nearly free-fall speeds and into their own footprint then it should be demonstrated; hell, we’ll make it easy, demonstrate such an event on a smaller scale.

Use an old highrise destined for demolition

The airplane strike could be modelled by cutting columns in a pattern that resembles what happened on 9/11, and the equivalent amount of jet fuel could be ignited. Fireproofing could be removed from a few floors to accommodate NIST's absurd notion that all fireproofing was removed in the impacted floors as a result of the plane impacts.

Better yet, remote-control an old passenger plane destined for dismantling into such a building at a high speed.

Could such an experiment be proposed?

"would anybody in the 9/11

"would anybody in the 9/11 Truth Movement say, “well, OK, we were wrong?" if, in fact, a new investigation found that we were. He then answered his own question by saying, "and the answer is “of course not," so stop pretending that all you want is another investigation - you want another investigation that comes to the conclusions that you believe."

Boy, where have I heard THAT before?

I want a real investigation to know.....

I want an investigation of who placed the explosives in the towers, because the towers were blown to pieces (according to New Mexico Tech's building explosives expert Van Romero on September 12, 2001, and USA Today reporter Jack Kelley on the morning of 9/11);

I want to know who made NORAD stand down on 9/11, because on September 10, 2001 NORAD did monitor and control American and Canadian airspace (see The NORAD Papers at www.DNotice.org);

I want to know who deactivated the Pentagon's six missile batteries on 9/11 (five batteries hidden in fake air conditioning covers on the roof, one battery hidden on the ground);

I want to know what happened to Flight 175 that is said to have hit the south tower, because that aircraft isn't a commercial Boeing airliner as proven by digital analysis conducted by the University School, Barcelona, in 2003. See: http://www.amics21.com/911/flight175/

Dean Jackson/webmaster DNotice.org
Washington, DC

Why don't all the debunkers simply

put their efforts into supporting a new investigation which could prove that we are wrong?!!

Their "logic" goes something like this:

Since al Qaeda did attack us and the only thing that would be shown with a new investigation is incompetence, it's not worth the time and money investigating. We have a war on terror to fight and we need to move on. Bush and Cheney are just about out of office, anyway.

At least that's the most intelligible argument I've ever got from any of them. Some have said that they would like to see a new investigation (or at least not oppose one), but there are far more important things to work on than clarifying some "minor details".

Then there is the claim that "no investigation would satisfy you."

Obfuscation is a key tactic here.

When dealing with the intellectually dishonest or those in deep denial, don't expect rationality. This is why I always counter the word "believe" with "know". I don't "believe" there was a conspiracy, I know that the physics, facts and logic regarding 9/11 prove the OCT to be false in multiple ways. Thus the need for a new investigation.

We need to marginalize the hardcore debunkers as much as possible just by ignoring them and focusing on the general public.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

Pat's presumption

is a miscarriage of logic and fairness. He imposes motives on us we may not share, to strengthen his own argument to the point where you cannot be skeptical -- period -- or it means you believe about 9/11 everything Pat says you believe.

It's called agnosticism, Pat. Look into it.

Fuck yeah, Jon

Keep up the good fight.

70 Disturbing Facts About 9/11

John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State Blog
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

johndoraemi --at-- yahoo.com.

"No one said the air was safe to breathe." - Mark Roberts

"Well, it's also completely false. No one said the air at Ground Zero was safe to breathe." - Mark Roberts, in post 11,088 as Gravy on the JREF Forum, 11/05/07 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3125436%26postcount=13).

Jon

I go back and forth with myself nearly everyday on this, tend toward LIHOP/ facilitation, but at times I wonder if it was a systematic institutional failure (which still wouldn't rule out intent to all it to happen, but that's extremely difficult to discern with the extant body of evidence in the public domain.

Institutional Sociopathy

There is no such thing as institutional failure, nor Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

LIHOP? Why LIHOP when MIHOP is safer? Do you really think the sociopaths would allow real terrorists fly over Indian Point Nuclear Facility? Do you really think the sociopaths would allow a commercial airliner get any where near the Pentagon unless they knew it wouldn't crash into the side of the Pentagon that housed the offices of Donald Rumsfeld and the JCS? By the way, the Pentagon missile batteries (all six of them on 9/11) would automatically lock on targets and fire. Institutional failure is not a variable in this instance.

By the way, under the official 9/11 narrative institutional failure doesn't even apply to NORAD because NORAD wasn't supposed to have been monitoring and controling American skies on 9/11. Of course, thanks to The NORAD Papers (go to www.DNotice.org and read the five articles on NORAD), we now know that not only did NORAD monitor and control American (and Canadian) airspace on 9/11, but that NORAD was also tasked with identifying aircraft flying through American airspace that filed flight plans with the FAA (any aircraft flying above 18,000 feet).

The sociopaths had to say that NORAD didn't monitor American airspace because no one would believe that a military organization could be so incompetent in its failure to monitor four obviously errant aircraft. Well, now we know that NORAD did indeed monitor and control American airspace, which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that 9/11 was a MIHOP operation.

Dean Jackson/webmaster DNotice.org
Washington, DC

think you might be wrong

just think you might be wrong, i'm aware of all of the facts at hand, have read countless books, several thousand pages, all trying to discern what happened, and still can't reach a definitive conclusion, I don't think anyone can that is a real skeptic, that's why I merely support the overarching goal (or the alleged overarching goal) of the 9/11 "Truth" Movement rather than associate myself with the 'true believers'

Thanks all...

I hope it helps. One thing "debunkers" assume is that we WANT to be doing this. I will admit, I do enjoy writing. I do enjoy putting pieces together. I do enjoy talking with my friends in the 9/11 Truth Movement. However, I HATE having to do this. It is so f*cking depressing to see what's going on. It's so *#@*$!! depressing to hear the anger/despair in a family member's voice. It's so $**%#@(!!! depressing to think about our heroes, and the impact this has had on their families. I wish I never had to this. It's taken up my whole life. That being said, I would do it all again without a second thought. It is unfathomable to me to think of just letting this slide. To think of having a thought in my brain that says, "who cares what they've done?" is just incomprehensible. I don't want to do this. It's just the right thing to do.


Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?