Frontline releases new photos aftermath 9/11 after FOIA request
swinferno Tue, 07/28/2015 - 9:03pm
In never-before-released photographs taken on Sept. 11, 2001, the shock, horror and gravity of the terrorist attacks can be read on the faces of President George Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, their wives Laura and Lynne, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, CIA Director George Tenet and other senior Bush and Cheney staffers.
The photos were released in response to a Freedom of Information Act request filed by Colette Neirouz Hanna, coordinating producer for the Kirk Documentary Group, which covered the Bush administration in many films for FRONTLINE, including Bush’s War, Cheney’s Law and The Dark Side.
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Check out the full set of these newly-released photos from 9/11
The full set of these photos of Dick Cheney and other U.S. government officials on September 11 can be viewed here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/sets/72157656213196901
There are some interesting photos
Larger - http://photos3.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/1/f/3/2/highres_440167986.jpeg
Aside...
From the picture of Cheney relaxing with his foot up on the desk as people are dying, I believe this to be an intriguing and important photograph.
Take note of what he's watching. Bush's speech at Booker started at 9:30.
If the photograph is authentic, and I have no evidence to the contrary, this shows that Norman Mineta was wrong. Maybe I'm wrong?
That being said, Dick Cheney had no power that morning. He was not part of the chain of command. The Vice President's "power" is to break a tie in the Senate and to take over as President in the event the President is killed. So far as I know, that is the power a Vice President has. He has no power over the military. Now, COG was implemented on 9/11. Did that give Cheney additional powers?
I also found this photo to be intriguing...
Look at Addington, Libby and Cheney on 9/11. Remember that Addington was called back to the White House so he and Cheney could discuss what powers they could get because of the attacks. Powers Cheney wanted BEFORE the attacks.
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a1000legalteam#a1000legalteam
Do the orders still stand?
Good photo's of Norman Minetta side-by-side with Vice President Cheney.
Can we get any confirmed times for each photo? All i see are the dates.
I want to know if the Capt. Douglas f. Cochrane was asking the vice president "do they orders still stand?" occurred during the time of these photos.
The 9/11 commission report is the authoritative narrative of the events surrounding 9/11. Nothing further to add.
Younger man
The "young man" is Captain Douglas F. Cochrane who is about 30 years YOUNGER than Minetta. He is in the photos as well.
Which?
Which guy is Cochrane?
Cochrane
Let me Google that for you:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Captain+Douglas+F.+Cochrane
He was a military aide to Cheney, and in one newspaper article termed "Vice Presidential Emergency Action Officer" on 9/11.
You see him in a white Navy uniform and with white hair in the PEOC photos. There is only one such person. Several images are shown full size in this thread that show him, usually in the background.
I am not, however, 100% convinced that Cochran and Mineta's "young man" are the same person. jimd3100, who made that identification, based this on the 9/11 Commission describing how a "military aide" announced how a plane was 80 miles, then 60 miles out - estimates at between 10:10 and 10:18. The report then describes how, at approx. 10:30, "the shelter started receiving reports of another hijacked plane, this time only 5 to 10 miles out". It is not clear to me whether it was the same military aide that relayed this, nor that this was the same "plane". Also, Mineta related how the "young man" reported the plane 50/30/10 miles out, rather than 80/69/5-10. I think it's at least possible that Mineta overheard another "young man", someone who was on the phone perhaps with FAA.
My doubt is fed, in part, by the observation in the photos that Cochrane is never shown on a phone, he mostly stands there on the wall, hands folded, waiting for someone to give him an errand to run, while others, nameless so far, seem to be on the phone a great deal of the time, maybe actively pulling information into the PEOC.
I can now answer 7WTC911's
I can now answer 7WTC911's question: "Can we get any confirmed times for each photo? All i see are the dates."
First, disregard the dates given in the meta data - all photos are on 9/11.
1. V1544-19: After 10:28 and before 12:15 - my gut feeling is it's closer to the latter, so perhaps 11:45. The following photos are:
V1544-20
V1544-21
V1544-22
V1544-23
V1544-24
V1544-29
V1544-30
V1544-33
V1544-35
The latter shows a bank of digital clocks. The top is Zulu, the second is local time: 12:15. Mineta is seen next to Cheney in -19, -22 and -23.
You can try reading Libby's watch in V1544-07, V1544-08, V1544-09, which were shot a bit before Mineta went up to Cheney, or the watch of the man on the right in V1544-21, which was around the time Mineta stood there. But be careful with watches, they are small and grainy and you can easily mistake reflections or shadows for hands.
2. V1542-02: Some time after 2 p.m.- possibly after 4:15
The film V1542 can't be timed directly, but when you compare the last image of the V1547 film, V1547-36, with the first of the V1542 film, V1542-01, you see that they were obviously shot back to back (compare where people sit and stand, compare also where notebooks, pens, bottles, napkins etc are on the table). V1542-02 immediately follows. In V1547-14 you can clearly read Mineta's wirst watch: It's 1:58. V1542-02 is 24 exposures later. (V1542 is followed immediately by V1560. In V1560-18 I am almost certain that Cheney's watch shows 5:05 - but remember to be very careful with watches; especially Cheney's gold watch is notoriously deceptive, it likes to reflect light spectacularly). If this is true, then V1542-02 could alse be said to have been "some time before 5 p.m.". It appears that Bohrer took a break somewhere - perhaps he was ordered out of the room during the National Security Council video conference (see below).
3. V1547-32: Some time after 2 p.m. - possibly shortly after 4:15
See above: In V1547-14 you can clearly read Mineta's wirst watch: It's 1:58. V 1547-32 is 18 exposures later. Shortly before that, we see Cheney confering with Karen Hughes, Nicholas Calio, Stephen Hadley in V1547-25, V1547-26, Alberto Gonzales and David Addington are also there. These are legal and policy advisors. Next, all are sitting and watching some screen: V1547-29, V1547-30. And after that, the same folks are looking down and taking notes before everybody stands up: V1547-32, V1547-33. In my mind, this could have been before, during and after the President's video conference with the National Security Council from approximately 3:15 to 4:15 (a snapshot of that from Offutt AFB is in P7093-16).
4. V1551-07: Between 10:00 p.m. and 10:30 p.m.
This is aboard helicopter Marine Two, which flew the Cheneys and a few aides to Camp David around that time according to log entries on page 11 of this USSS timeline.
"I want to know if the Capt. Douglas f. Cochrane was asking the vice president "do they orders still stand?" occurred during the time of these photos."
Answer: NO. All these photos were shot too late for that scene.
Try these:
V1543-25 - 10:21 a.m.: Mineta and Cochrane both idle, not talking to Cheney
V1543-26 - 10:22 a.m.: Cheney addresses the group, Cochrane passive, Mineta out of sight
V1543-31 - ~10:28 a.m.: Mineta, Cheney and others watching TV, quite possibly just as WTC1 collapses. Cochrane out of sight
V1543-32 - ~10:28 a.m.: ditto
V1543-35 - 10:30 (guesstimate): Someone who's ona phone informs Mineta of something. This is the same man who stands with a phone behind Cheney and Mineta in V1544-19 and who is one of my candidated for "young man", because I lean towards believing that Cochrane is not Mineta's "young man"
V1544-24 - a while later: Cochrane is huddling with two other men while the man on the phone is listening in on them.
There are IMO no other images in the relevant time frame that might capture a glimpse of or a clou about the "x miles out - engage?" scene.
Photos show Cheney was evacuated from office after 9:35 a.m.
Note that some of these photos give clear evidence that Dick Cheney was only evacuated from his office at the White House some time after 9:35 a.m., and not shortly after 9:03 a.m. as has often been suggested.
For example, if you zoom in on this photo of Cheney watching TV in his office (by clicking on the picture), it seems that the ABC News clock on the TV is showing a time of 9:33 a.m.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/19921999311/in/album-72157656213196901/
And if you zoom in on this photo, the ABC News clock appears to be showing a time of 9:35 a.m. or 9:36 a.m.:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/19295963143/in/gallery-flickr-72157656324019012/
Furthermore, this photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/19916932565/in/album-72157656213196901/
shows Cheney still in his office, watching President Bush giving his talk from the library at the Emma E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida. This speech was given at 9:30 a.m. (see http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010911.html).
This evidence is consistent with what I wrote in my article, "The Dangerously Delayed Reactions of the Secret Service on 9/11," where I indicated that Cheney was likely evacuated from his office after 9:35 a.m. You can read that article here:
http://shoestring911.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-dangerously-delayed-reactions-of.html
Minetta
If the veracity of this photo collection is upheld it puts quite a dent in Minetta's timeline and testimony - we should be cautious in evaluation
And Clarke?
Wasn't Mineta's estimate of the time of Cheney's arrival corroborated by Richard Clarke? At least, it was a lot closer to Mineta's than that given in the Commission report (9:58). Rice has also said that the Secret Service told her, 'The Vice President's already there [in the PEOC].' Of course, that might just as well raise questions about their reliability as well. One thing about Mineta, though, is that his statements were under oath.
Ya know...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2001/09/17/quietly-cheney-again-takes-prominent-role/639376bf-983a-4f5b-936...
You know, it was Cheney talking to Tim Russert that gave the impression that the Secret Service were on the ball that morning.
"While I was there, over the next several minutes, watching developments on the television and as we started to get organized to figure out what to do, my Secret Service agents came in and, under these circumstances, they just move," he told Russert. "They don't say 'sir' or ask politely. They came in and said, 'Sir, we have to leave immediately,' and grabbed me.
“These circumstances?” When America is “under attack?” They knew that at 9:03, and it took the Secret Service HOW LONG to move him? They didn’t “just move.”
Another lie told in the days after 9/11 to give the idea everybody acted competently?
Mineta's timeline
First, I have reason to assume that these photos (many, or all) were scanned from analog, not shot with digital cameras.
Concerning Mineta's timeline, consider this photo from the PEOC:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/19729034280/
It has an array of four vertically arranged digital clocks in the background, of which we can (barely) read three;
16:16
12:16
10:16
You may say that the second could as well show 18:16 - difficult to decipher. The TV set on the right however shows a scene that was broadcast on CNN at, as best as I can figure, 12:15:32, according to the Wayback Machine's 9/11 TV archive:
https://archive.org/details/911/day/20010911#id/CNN_20010911_160000_CNN_Live_Today/start/16:15:26UTC
We can assume that the first two clocks would show Zulu Time and local time (EDT). This is why I think 12:16 is the correct reading, the third clock would then be Mountain Time - perhaps to reflect NORAD center in Cheyenne Mountain, CO.
Back to Mineta: His timeline is wrong, as you noticed. I suggest he was wrong by precisely one hour, and one might suspect that he was looking at the wrong clock in the PEOC. That would either be the fourth clock then, assuming it showed 11:16, or the third clock was set to Cental Time earlier that morning - perhaps to reflect STRATCOM, located near Omaha, Nebraska (remember, before the attacks, the most immediate concern was a Russian air exercise up north).
Unclear, to me
I clicked and zoomed in on the two flickr photos, and could not make out the times shown on the TV screen at all.
Still Chilling At 9:36 am
Side by side comparisons of the live broadcast with what is seen on Cheney's TV. (sorry, I still don't know how to embed the photos)
Two proofs Cheney was still there at 9:36 am. Not taking charge. Spectating..
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!299&authkey=!AIWGDgHTrrGKtuo&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!300&authkey=!AKmAzxEEjfIOiyk&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
Thanks to 37 year video expert MirageMemories for creating these comparisons.
The Secret Service timeline (thanks to Aidan Monaghan) says the VP and about 10 others were in the ZP level, near PEOC at 9:30, so that timeline is incorrect or these photos have been messed with.
See PDF page 6, @ 9:30
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!301&authkey=!ABb2w8OPhHOG8zg&ithint=file%2cpdf
See more fine work by MirageMemories here concerning video tampering of WTC7 records.
http://the911forum.freeforums.org/nist-video-deceit-t752.html
This supports my doubts about
This supports my doubts about the photos! Even according to the official account, Cheney was not at 09:36 in his office anymore.
Other Secret Service testimony
says they didn't go to Cheney's office to remove him until they realized flight 77 was turning back to the north on its 330° loop over Northeastern Virginia.
Here's a another thing no one seems to be able to explain. Why would the Secret Service run in and grab Cheney by the belt and carry him out of his office to the PEOC in a rapid manner if the plane was still "80 miles out" after Mineta got established in the bunker?
Two proofs Cheney was still there at 9:36 am.
Large - http://photos1.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/c/f/0/d/highres_440333005.jpeg
Large - http://photos3.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/c/f/0/e/highres_440333006.jpeg
Invaluable!
Thanks for providing these photos, TomT. They are very helpful.
I would be interested to know what Norman Mineta has to say about this new evidence, which suggests he has misled a lot of people.
Mineta always known to be wrong
Are you surprised? The 9/11 Commission had discarded Mineta's timeline from the very beginning, knowing it was wrong.
9/11myths had this extensively covered in early 2008: www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta (WebArchive 2008-03-05)
Same article today with even more extensive documentation: www.911myths.com/index.php/Norman_Mineta (current)
See also: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106507
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Dick_Cheney_at_the_PEOC
Already in July 2006: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1798453&postcount=302
Mineta had his timeline wrong all along, as has been commonly accepted for many years. These photos (taken by Cheney’s White House photographer David Bohrer) corroborate the 9/11 Commission timeline, and on the fly add more nails to the coffin of Mineta's timeline. Welcome to 2015.
Entering the PEOC at 9:30
Let's say for a moment that the Secret Service timeline you linked to is accurate and the VP entered the PEOC at 9:30. How does that put Mineta in the PEOC at 9:20?
The important point
The important point is that Mineta witnessed Cheney's interaction with the young man describing an unidentified aircraft BEFORE the Pentagon was struck at ~9:38.
Here are some interesting related observations made by a high Secret Service official, Nelson Garabito,.who was in charge of protecting the WH airspace. (thanks to BIO-- see http://911blogger.com/news/2010-12-24/foreknowledge-two-more-hijacked-planes-around-0903-heading-towards-dc)
See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUEYAJiLB2c
Nelson Garabito was in charge of securing the WH airspace. He was on the phone with Terry Van Steebergen over at FAA HQ (l'Enfant Plaza). He claims to be tracking the incoming plane 30 MINUTES out. That means at~ 9:08 am.
Garabito's people would be in direct contact with the PEOC letting them know the progress of the plane that threatened the WH airspace, but ultimately struck the Pentagon.
This also proves that Garabito had access to long range radar capable of seeing much further out than regular ATCs see, (typically 45-50 miles). You'd expect the WH would have the best radar feed.
In Garabito's 911 Commission interview he says:
"...the unaccounted for airplane toward DC was 30 miles out and coming in fast and low."
Since AA77 had no transponder, neither speed nor altitude could be seen by regular ATCs. At 9:35:47 ATC Dan Creedon at Reagan National attached a "LOOK" data block to the target, and the speed then appeared. No altitude could be gathered.
Again, this suggests that the WH had a superior radar system for protecting the WH airspace, that had height finding and speed functions for primary targets.
The SS timeline does have flaws. Let's figure out which ones are necessary to a complete understanding of Cheney's movements.
Garabito's interview
Do you know who conducted that interview with Garabito? I would like to see the full interview, it was cut off too soon and there is no follow-up of what happened after he described the airplane approaching DC.
Something else about his interview, he says there are two airplanes approaching DC, one 30 minutes out and the other 45 minutes out. That's a problem. Flight 77 crashed at 9:37 and United 93 didn't turn back to the east until 9:35.
Miles Kara has stated on his blog that the White House had a radar feed from Reagan. Why would the Secret Service lie to the 9/11 commission about the radar feed?
At around 09:05 Garabino knew
At around 09:05 Garabino knew about two "outstanding planes" one was "approximately 30 minutes out" of Washington DC., the other "was 45 minutes" out.
“… he said there were 4 planes believed to be hijacked and 2 outstanding believed to be travelling to D.C” (scribd)
The first plane matches perfectly to flight 77.
The second seemingly not, but flight 93 was delayed for 42 minutes. As the plane crashed, it was 28 minutes away from Washington DC! (“The projected landing time was at 10:28 a.m.”) Without the delayed take-off, flight 93 would have been in Washington DC around 09:50. So it would also perfectly match to Garabinos foreknowledge.
Around 09:05 there were no reports of "false hijackings". They started to come in around 09:25. See shoestring: http://911blogger.com/news/2011-04-10/many-false-hijackings-911
What?
Now you're claiming Garabito had "foreknowledge" of flight 77 and flight 93 being hijacked before it happened?
As in he was in on the conspiracy and knew that four planes were going to be hijacked and the two of them would eventually crash somewhere in Washington?
And then went on national television and accidentally admitted that he was in on the conspiracy?
Yeah, this conversation is over, I'm not going to waste my time.
It is not a crazy conspiracy
It is not a crazy conspiracy theory, that the Garabino statement can prove the foreknowledge of the secret service! Why? Therefore ...
1. Over years the official version claimed, that Norad was informed early by the FAA regarding flights 77 and 93. I assume Garabino felt in line with that version.
2. Garabino said, that he was informed by the FAA-man Steenhagen over the two outstanding planes. But when you read the 911-interview of steenhagen you see that according to him, he was informed by garabino.
3. Why should Garabino have informed Steenhagen about the two outstanding planes? When you read the interview with steenhagen, you see, that his response was to sterilize the airspace over Washington DC. Did the secret service fear, that flight 77 could hit another airplane accidentally in midair? (Flight 175 almost collided with another plane).
Garabito said: "What should we do?", Steenbergen said: "We need to turn all the planes away from Washington."
The three people in his office called Dulles, National, BWI to tell the pilots to turn their aircraft out of class B airspace. (...) Once we started the planes moving outbound (...) all inbound planes were considered hostile. Steenbergen said, we needed fighters airborne. We had three people here in his office call over to Andrews, Langley etc. to see, if they would launch some fighters. Diane Creen, Karen Pontius, Scott Hagen were in his office that day."
"http://www.scribd.com/doc/17218142/T8-B6-FAA-HQ-Terry-van-Steenbergen-Fdr-33004-MFR-875
There are no 911-interviews with Steenhagens FAA-team Diane Creen, Karen Pontius, Scott Hagen.
But it is known, that Karen Pontius tried unsuccessfully to scramble fighters of the "DC Air National Guard" in the name of the secret service and talked with Steve Marra, the air traffic controller at Andrews airbase. Major Daniel Caine turned the request down because ...
Caine will also tell the 9/11 Commission that the Andrews tower “would not have been in the loop for any Secret Service orders to scramble aircraft.”
Filson, 2003, pp. 76; 9/11 Commission, 3/8/2004
Re: The important point
kawika wrote: "The important point is that Mineta witnessed Cheney's interaction with the young man describing an unidentified aircraft BEFORE the Pentagon was struck at ~9:38."
The important point now is that we know, through several lines of evidence, that Cheney didn't arrive at the PEOC until after the Pentagon had been hit. This is now reinforced by the photo of Cheney in his WH office at 9:36.
The other important point is that Mineta, who was in a meeting next to his office when he was informed about (i.e. after) the second crash at 9:03, could not possible have made it to the PEOC by 9:20, as he testified under oath.
It follows that Mineta's timeline is WRONG.
It follows further that whatever the "young man" in the PEOC was refering to could not possibly be the real flight 77.
Simple as that.
Exactly
Norman Mineta describes an aircraft approaching from the northwest. He specifically mentions Great Falls and the "downriver approach." Flight 77 approached from the west and then took a turn to the south and never would've been described as approaching from the northwest, but a projected United 93 would have.
The aircraft Garabito describes, just like Norman Mineta, makes a direct approach to Washington and neither one of them have ever mentioned a sudden deviation that took the approaching aircraft on a three-minute loop south of Washington.
If you have a spare four minutes, I would recommend watching this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKaEtq4EMoY
Belger
ADDIS77 wrote: "Norman Mineta describes an aircraft approaching from the northwest."
Let's keep all the players separated. The young man, Mineta, Cochrane and Belger.
Mineta was on the phone with Monte Belger, who was feeding Mineta details. Belger described a NW track. Then the Pentagon strike was reported. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGI5BmNd7AE (@ mark 1:23)
See this for more details: http://911blogger.com/news/2011-10-19/norman-mineta-mistaken-identity
Ask yourself this:
If Langley fighters arrived in DC at around 9:52 and UA93 didn't crash in Shanksville until 10:03, don't you think they could have intercepted UA93 before it got to 10 miles out? The suggestion that the young man, or Belger is describing UA93 or the projected path of it under these circumstances is ridiculous.
Mineta is describing a pre-Pentagon event. He said it in this interview and he said it before the 911 Commission.
Belger
said he did not discuss the airplane that crashed into the Pentagon with the secretary. And before you bring up "9:45" his interview with the commission staff, explain how that puts him on the phone with Mineta before the Pentagon attack.
You think Belger describing a projected path of United 93 is ridiculous? Then ask yourself these questions:
Why was an F-16 scrambled out of Andrews recorded on ATC frequency looking for "an aircraft coming down the river" shortly after 10:30? The pilot himself said it was United 93 they were looking for.
Why did a National Park Service pilot say in an interview that he halted rescue missions at the Pentagon and landed nearby because the plane from Pennsylvania was thought to be heading back to the Pentagon?
Why did Creed and Newman say in their book "Firefight" that Pentagon rescue operations were halted because United 93 was thought to be heading toward the Pentagon?
Why was a Pentagon police cruiser driving up Columbia Pike telling everyone to evacuate the Pentagon area because another hijacked air plane was coming in? This happened sometime before Billy Hutchison was video recorded flying over the Pentagon in an F-16, which happened before 10:45.
Why were Baltimore controllers caught on ATC recordings telling Dulles controllers at 10:30 that they just lost United 93 off the TSD?
Why was someone calling Washington approach at 10:28 saying United 93 is not showing in the system anymore?
Why do we have documentation showing that United 93's flightplan was updated to reflect DCA landing at 10:28?
The answer to all of the questions above is because Linda Justice changed the flightplan for United 93 to reflect a DCA arrival. Her reasons can be heard here at the 4:30 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbyGV_yhPPI
All this shows, that people
All this shows, that people assumed, that flight 93 was still in the air heading towards Washington DC. It does not prove, that this "projected" plane was the plane, about which Mineta speaks about. "10 miles out, Do the orders still stand"
Apart from that, did flight 93 did not disappear from the radar-system, when it crashed? This must have been noted by the FAA. Based on that, I would like to know, how this disappearance was interpreted. In the accounts of Weikert and Belger I cannot find anything about a "projected" plane 93, which was heading towards Washington DC after the crash. And they were the masters of the hijack-nets and on the phone with Minetta.
Furthermore the government-version is quite crazy: First the FAA should not have warned the White house about flight 93, then after the crash of flight 93, the FAA should have updated the white house about the exact location of the "projected" flightpath of flight 93: 50 miles out ..., although the real plane crashed half an hour before.
True, the story about the
True, the story about the projected flight path of UA93 from a flight plan, not radar, being the source of those "x miles out" reports hasn't been, and perhaps can't be, objectivley proven.
What CAN be proven is that Mineta's timeline is FALSE.
Do you accept that Mineta's timeline is FALSE? If not, why not?
Kawika posted photographic evidence upthread, synchronized with TV recordings, that shows Cheney was still in his WH office at 9:36. Do you accept this evidence? Do you accept that Cheney was in his office at 9:36?
This means he cannot possibly have been in the PEOC until after AA77 had crashed. Do you agree with this statement? Do you accept it as fact?
This means that "the young man" that Mineta overheard talking to Cheney in the PEOC said what Mineta heard quite clearly after AA77 had already crashed. Is this logic false? Do you disagree?
You hint that you think that maybe the photos are staged or otherwise faked - but there they are: Why do you insist that time-stamped photographic evidence and tape recording of live TV should be overruled by timelines recreated by government witnesses from memory? What makes you think that it's more likely that Cheney faked the photos than that Mineta and the FAA told a story that makes them look less incompetent?
I think Mineta's, Belger's, Clarke's and others' testimonies serve the purpose of portraing themselves as leaders who were quick and decisive on top of the situation, when the truth is that Mineta was always chasing behind the events, wasn't up-to-date until long after the attack was over, and never took an important decision that had not already been taken and executed by others before him. Had Mineta told a true story, it should have been summarized as "I, Norman Mineta, failed to lead my agencies in the worst hour of the crisis".
Why protect Mineta by denying the hard evidence?
"Young" is relative. From my
"Young" is relative.
From my understanding, the younger man is "Capt. Douglas f. Cochrane" . He is pictured in the white uniform in the pictures from my earlier post.
E-4B video
Kawika, a couple of years ago you posted a link to a video that showed some cameraman running around Washington DC taking random shots on 9/11. I believe it was a CNN cameraman and the video contained a shot of the E4-B as it flew over downtown DC.
Do you still have a link to that video?
Not relevant to Cheney
You can find the same E4B videos that I can. I'm not your secretary.
This is not relevant to when Cheney was watching TV in his office.
For continuity's sake: kawika
For continuity's sake: kawika did post the video that ADDIS77 requested here:
http://911blogger.com/news/2015-09-17/air-defense-exercise-month-911-was-based-around-osama-bin-laden-carrying-out-aerial-...
It apparently shows Lynne Cheney's motorcade arriving at the north gate to West Executive Avenue just as the E4-B turns right, away from P56, the no-fly-zone over DC, at 9:46.
I am not convinced, that the
I am not convinced, that the photos in the office on Cheney must be authencial from the morning of 911. They could have been fabricated later together with his staff. In the photes I see for example a highly suspicous person like Scooter Libby, who has two "counts of perjury, two counts of making false statements to federal investigators, and one count of obstruction of justice."
You're questioning the integrity of those in the photos?
Liz & Dick? Condi? Bush the Lesser?, Scooter? Richard Clark?
I am
Mineta has been consistent in his memory and timeline (in which he has been well corroborated, though it has not been unanimous). He specifically recounts temporal events which preceded and included the event at the Pentagon which he relates he was following in real time (in conversation with Monte Belger, I believe). There is discussion of clocks above though we should note that Mineta is wearing a watch in one of the photos.
Go to 51:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3152&v=O1GCeuSr3Mk
At 09:05 am Secret Service knew of two more terror-planes
... heading towards Washington DC and Cheney stayed in his office until 09:36!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tayt-X4ydzA
I wrote an article about this ....
http://911blogger.com/news/2010-12-24/foreknowledge-two-more-hijacked-planes-around-0903-heading-towards-dc
Mineta may have been
Mineta may have been consistent with his timeline, but he was wrong, plain and simple. Cheney did not leave his office in the White House until around the time AA77 crashed into the Pentagon. Rushed down to the bunker, he spent some time on the phone in the tunnel outside the PEOC proper - I presume participating in the Air Threat Conference (ATC) that had been established by the NMCC (Pentagon). Major Chambers related how the Pentagon was hit while the ATC was still in the process of being established. It was during the ATC that Cheney issued the shoot-down order. Then Richard and Lynne Cheney entered the PEOC (9:58). Minutes later (10:03), UA93 crashed before it could get interecepted by fighters scrambled by NORAD, asccording to Chamber's account. Mineta came to the PEOC after the Cheneys - this means long after AA77 had crashed and most likely after UA93 had crashed.
We can establish this timeline from various lines of evidence, to which the above photo set (showing Cheney in his WH office at 9:35) has now been added.
Mineta testified that he was in the PEOC at 9:20. This is impossible and clearly not true. From this point on, to put any stock into Mineta's timeline, especially since it is "consistent", is foolish.
Air traffic controll centers ZID and ZDC (Indianapolis and Washington-Dulles) did NOT know where AA77 was after it had turned, left its flight level and turned off the transponder, until shortly before it crashed. This means that NO ONE knew where AA77 was, including the FAA, the secret service, or any aides to any decision makers.
Now first, key thing to know is that FAA wasn't in any important conference call around the time AA77 and UA93 crashed - it missed the Air Threat Conference, and FAA's Jane Garvey was stuck in Richard Clarke's SVTS video conference (initiated 9:25, but convened, with FAA dialing in, no earlier than 9:40, and essentially disconnected from the rest of the world). Meanwhile, Mineta was on the way from his office, several blocks away, to the WH. Both Garvey and Mineta at the time were cut off from the information that Ben Sliney in FAA's Herndon Center had started to collect about all aircraft in the air - including everything that emerged about AA77 and UA93.
So what was Cochran tracking as inbound to Washington, according to Mineta's recollection?
Here is a recording made at 10:14 EDT from FAA’s Washington Operations Center (WOC):
http://www.oredigger61.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/101430-UA93-20-minutes-out.mp3
Someone passes this information out (WOC is in conference with ): "OK, number one is 93, it’s 20 minutes outside of DC, go pass that." Of course we know that by that time, UA93 was already crashed - 11 minutes earlier.
Recall that Cleveland Center had entered a new flight plan for UA93 according to which the flight "landed" at Reagan National at 10:28. What Mineta overheard was someone passing on information about a virtual flight UA93. This must have been around 10:20 - quite exactly an hour after Mineta's stated 9:20 arrival time. It is not clear how he arrived at this 1 hour offset. I suggested that perhaps he looked at the wrong clock. More likely, perrhaps, his staff made an error when preparing details for his testimony. For example, perhaps they had the UA93 track on Cleveland's time (the air control center that inserted the new flight plan) - Cleveland is Central Time. Or someone confused the offset to UTC (Zulu time) at some step along the way (standard offset for the Eastern time zone is UTC -5 hours, but in summer that's -4 hrs. If a staffer forgot about daylight savings time, they would have converted 14:20 Zulu to 9:20 instead of 10:20).
Monte Belger
told the 9/11 commission he didn't get on the phone with Norman Mineta until after the Pentagon crash. They were watching a projected flight 93 approach.
Belger could not remember
Belger could not remember speaking with Mineta before of the pentagon-attack, but he confirms, that Mineta was with Cheney, and that Mineta gave Belger the command to ground all planes shortly after the pentagon-attack.
"Belger does believe he knew that the Secretary was in the bunker of the White House, or that the Secretary was with Vice-POTUS (...) He and Garvey got on the phone with Norm Mineta who decided to bring everything down (around 9:45) which was implemented."
http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-08/statements-monte-belger-mike-weikert-both-faa-regard-mineta-testimony
Mike Weikert was in charge in the FAA-Headquarter for the "primary net" (hijack-net). In his statement to the 911 commission, he describes, what happened shortly before the Pentagon attack. He says, that the FAA-Headquarter tried to "raise" the White House, Defense Department, and that Belger was monotoring "both nets":
"We were trying to raise them when we were tracking the plane that crashed in the Pentagon. Belger was in the room at the time. He was monitoring both nets."
"(Around 9:45)"
You are basing your argument that Mineta and Belger were on the phone talking to one another because of a note that says "(around 9:45)" when you don't know for certain that is what Belger said in his interview, or if it's just a note made by a commission staffer pointing out that's what time the order came to land all aircraft.
Also, why would they be trying to raise the White House as they were tracking the plane that crashed into the Pentagon if Belger was on the phone with Mineta at the White House while tracking the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
Part of the "raising" was the
Part of the "raising" was the telephone connection beetween Belger and Minetta? Where is the problem? On contrary it confirms, that the FAA informed ("raised") the White House about flight 77, as Minetta tesifies.
Minetta said, that he gave Belger the grounding-order after the pentagon-attack. belger confirms that.
Richard Clarke also confirmed, that Minetta came to the white house around 09:15, clearly before the pentagon-attack happened.
Why should Belger and Clarke lie?
"High-speed VFR"
Belger says he did not recall speaking with Mineta about a "high speed VFR" that was spotted east of Dulles by air traffic controllers. This aircraft is without a doubt flight 77 because flight 77 was spotted by Dulles controllers east of the airport and heading towards DC and was described as a primary only VFR aircraft. You have to ignore that and assume "(about 9:45)" to be a direct quote.
"Belger clearly recalled reports of a "high speed VFR" headed eastward, though Belger does not recall speaking with the Secretary about this. The aircraft was characterized as an unidentified primary radar track that airtraffic had identified east of Dulles."
According to Mineta, Belger was giving him detailed positions and locations of the approaching aircraft. (None of which match up with flight 77's actual flight path, by the way.)
"Minetta said, that he gave
"Minetta said, that he gave Belger the grounding-order after the pentagon-attack."
Why do you choose to put you stock and trust in Mineta's testimony, rather than anybody else's?
"Richard Clarke also confirmed, that Minetta came to the white house around 09:15"
Totally unrealistic. At 9:03, Mineta was in a conference room with the Belgian transtort minister, next to his office, several blocks from the White House.
He was then informed of the second crash, retreated to his office and watched TV coverage of the second plane crashing. We are now easily at 9:05. He then gets back to his guest, telling her he needs to postpone the rest of the meeting, he talks to a couple of airline executives on the phone, talks with Jane Garvey (who was in the meeting with him), talks to some other FAA office. All of these calls and talks easily take 1-2 minutes, so we are now at least 9:11. Another call (let's say: ends at 9:13) - someone requests he go to the White House. It takes another minute or two to walk down and enter a car and leave the parking garage. It has to be 9:15 or later when Mineta's car enters traffic. Shortest driving time to the WH is 7 minutes, you certainly need another minute to negotiate entry at a time when the want everyone out of the premises. We are clearly, definetely past 9:20 now. Assuming that Mineta acted very fast on every single step - which is unlikely.
So we already know: Clarke MUST be wrong about Mineta being at the WH at 9:15. Mineta MUST be wrong about being at the PEOC at 9:20. It's simply impossible, physically. Why would you put stock and trust into Clarke's or Mineta's timelines after this?
Mineta reported that he arrived when lots of people were rushing to leave the WH - towards and beyond Lafayette Park. We know from several sources - reporters on the scene reporting live, secret service logs, other testimony - that the WH underwent this all-out evactuation after the AA77 crash - we now know that Cheney didn't leave the WH until after the crash! Therefore, Mineta arrived at the WH well after the 9:37. 9:45 is the earliest plausible time, could be a few minutes later.
He didn't make it into the PEOC before 10:00.
"Why should Belger and Clarke lie?"
To cover their arses, or their bosses' arses - to make it appear as if they responded swiftly and competently, They didn't. Clarke occupied several principals with a useless video conference that took awfully long to convene, while Mineta was chasing unsuccessfully the events and information.
Alternatively, they could be merely mistaken about their timelines.
In the meantime, Herndon Center had acted without input from either Mineta or Garvey. Mineta was actually informed of the grounding order - and given an opportunity to confirm it. He may believe that he toughened the order, but he didn't. He came too late to the party.
Belger Talks to Mineta
The 911 Commission's MFR for Monte Belger is incomplete.
http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00054.pdf
He was already on the phone with Mineta, from earlier. Listen to the audio version of the interview. (@ mark 1:15) "...starting about, a little before nine o'clock."
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!181&authkey=!AIv5lHcRVatVVKg&ithint=file%2cmp3
Mineta also told the 911 Commission during his testimony that they knew nothing about UA93 before it crashed. (@ mark 3:10)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y
Belger's words (from audio version)
At around 1 minute:
'...it was kind of continuous, uhh, you know, multi-unit calls with the Secretary, starting about, a little before nine o'clock.'
At around 5 minutes:
'I spoke to him, like I said, uhh, shortly after the first aircraft hit the World Trade Center.'
He also says (at around mark 10:20) that he thinks it was 'a little before 9:30' that they first knew that there was 'a problem with United 93' (he later clarifies, at around mark 13:50, that he doesn't remember specifically what people were telling him about flight 93 at the time, other than that it was 'in distress'); whereas the plane being tracked heading eastwards towards the DC area--about which they were receiving reports at about that same time--was then still 'unidentified' (and which in hindsight he understands to have been flight 77, not flight 93).
Belger's Silence
Listen to the silence pauses from Belger when he is asked about the low and fast unidentified VFR coming EASTERLY into the DC area.
After mark 5:00.
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!181&authkey=!AIv5lHcRVatVVKg&ithint=file%2cmp3
@ 8:00) He can't remember talking to Mineta about this.
Sorry, Monte. I'm not buying this.
He's avoiding talking to the interviewers about his conversation with Mineta. Mineta testified before the 911 Commission on 23 May 2003. Belger's interviews were recorded on 24 NOV 2003 and 20 APR 2004.
"Two proofs Cheney was still there"
kawika, it was you who posted, last week on wednesday, "Two proofs Cheney was still [in his White House office] at 9:36 am. Not taking charge. Spectating.."
I am confused about what you now believe with regard to Mineta's timeline, and what plane was being talked about when he overheard a "young man" talking to Cheney in the PEOC.
Are you saying that the two proofs you posted aren't proofs?
If you accept your own proof, then you must accept that Cheney didn't arrive at the PEOC until after AA77.
Do you accept that Cheney first spent some time in the tunnel before entering the PEOC proper?
Do you accept Mineta's statement that he arrived in the PEOC after Mr. and Mrs. Cheney?
Then you should accept that he wasn't in the PEOC until very shortly before UA93 crashed - and possibly after this fourth crash.
Doesn't it follow then that someone was tracking a plane that was neither the real AA77 nor the real UA93?
Whatever it was - a different plane, or much delayed info about AA77 or UA93, or wrong information about either (from wrong system), or some ghost plane that never existed - it wasn't AA77.
Mineta's timeline is wrong.
Spoke Too Soon
When I said "two proofs" I misspoke. In hindsight it should have been phrased as a question. Until we can absolutely verify the time the images were captured, we can only guess.
Regarding your question about whether I think the young man was speaking about AA77, the answer is Yes. UA93 could not be tracked towards Washington until after 9:55. ATC Linda Justice changed the flight plan at 9:56, but took back the hand off a minute later, according to her testimony to the 9/11 Commission..
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=linday_justice_1
http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00154.pdf
At the time UA93 was approximately 150 miles away from National Airport. The young man reporting 50/30/10 would have to come many minutes later.because UA93 was scheduled, by this projected track, to arrive at 10:28.
According to author Lynne Spencer “A controller in Washington, unaware that the flight had crashed, was calling position reports for the coast track of United 93 to the White House (see (Between 10:10 a.m. and 10:15 a.m.)
However, the Flight Explorer track at one point shows arrival at 9:34 am.
I still haven't figured this one out.
Mineta enters the PEOC
How about this sequence of photos? For brevity and clarity, I refer to them by their original filename as shown in the EXIF data:
V1543-10.jpg (Rice and Cheney on the phone)
V1543-14.jpg (10:03 on TV screen)
V1543-19.jpg (Mineta apparently walks in the door)
V1543-22.jpg (10:18 on Libby's wrist watch)
V1543-26.jpg (10:22 on TV screen)
(Note: The filenames are a circumstantial clue that these images were taken in that chronological order.)
Download all pictures, and watch them in this sequence! Look for details, such as paper, pens, cookies and bottles of water on the table!
For example:
* In the first photo, the desk in front of Cheney and Rice is tidy - there's a new tray of cookies, a (stack of?) napkin(s), and some brochure, but no paper, no pen, no water. At 10:03, Cheney has some notepaper and a pen. This means Cheney and Rice were in the PEOC before 10:03.
* Between 10:03 and Mineta entering, someone has placed two fresh bottles and an upside-down stack of plastic cups to the left of Cheney, and Cheney has more paper. So this means those were placed there after 10:03, and Mineta enters after 10:03.
* They bottles remain untouched at 10:18.
Conclusion: Mineta entered the PEOC after 10:03 and before 10:18.
This is consistent with an internal memo by 9/11 Commission staffer Dana Hyde, who wrote that, according to the PEOC entry log (unpublished?), Cheney entered 10:58, Mineta entered 10:07:
http://www.911myths.com/images/2/2d/Daniel_Marcus_Box8_Team8.pdf
(page10, towards the bottom: "(3) Keeper of Shelter log - name(s) unknown: The PEOC shelter log places the VP in the shelter at 0958 and Mineta in the shelter at 1007". Hyde expresses concern about the reliability of such logs. So for all I care this 10:07 could be 10:05 or 10:17, but now we know it can't be 10:03 or earlier!)
Mineta arrived in the PEOC half an hour after AA77 had crashed. Whatever he heard in the PEOC was not about AA77, not even a ghost of AA77.
UA93 had crashed, too, but there was lingering confusion about that for some time to come. Mineta's timeline is simply wrong by quite a bit, and since his times are wrong, the association of what he related within that timeline to real world events necessarily is also wrong. I don't understant this insistence to salvage something, anything, from Mineta's hopelessly wrong testimony. He was a complete failure on 9/11 and either lied about it, or continued to fail when he tried to piece together his recollection and got it all wrong.
Where was he
Where was he at 9:45 when he told Belger to Ground Stop?
You are assuming two things
You are assuming two things as true, that I find dubious:
1. That Mineta told Belger to Ground Stop
2. That Mineta talked to Belger at 9:45
So I will answer only the base question: "Where was Mineta at 9:45?"
He was on his way to the White House complex. or he was on the WH complex trying to figure out where he ought to be to be of any use.
Your assumptions, I presume, stem from Belger's testimony to the 9/11 Commission, right?
Staff notes of that testimony are here, events starting on "The Day of 9/11" beginning on page 5. Note how in several instances, a degree of uncertainty about the timeline is expressed: "a few minutes", "At some point he was told", "wasn't sure whether he learned that before or after...", "around 9:20 he remembers" (as opposed to "logs show" or some such documentation), "By this point he believes he talked with", "until after AAL 77 crashed" (how long after?), "was told about UAL 93 after it crashed" (how long after?), "shortly after [the Pentagon crash] happened" (how much time is "shortly"?). In light of this uncertainty, and minding the lack of reference to any documents such as notes or phone logs, a data item such as "around 9:45" (when "He and Garvey got on the phone with Norman Mineta who decided to bring everything down") must be taken with a lump of salt. Mineta had no fucking clue about anything at that time. The Ground Stop was actually decided, communicated and implemented by Ben Sliney.
On page 8, Belger admits that no one thought to write down any sort of after-action report at the FAA - most of what they did that day had to be recreated from faulty human recollection.
Here is an April 2004 interview with Belger, conducted by Commission staffers. The first 50 pages are hand-written notes, the last 9 pages a Memo prepared from the notes. Notice how the entire account is peppered with expressions of uncertainty. The Ground Stop isn't explicitly mentioned here, but calls from Mineta, and how Belger believes he may have learned after the fact that Mineta was in the PEOC - which raises the real possibility that Belger had no fucking clue where Mineta was when they discussed the Ground Stop.
Mineta stated in his Commission hearing:
Is that true? Did Mineta get on the phone with Belger and Garvey immediately? The photo evidence says otherwise. The following photos are taken in chronological order and represent all photos released by NARA from that time frame:
V1543-19 - Mineta enters the PEOC
(V1543-20 missing from photo set)
V1543-21 - Mineta about to take a seat
V1543-22 - 10:18 on Libby's wrist watch
(V1543-23 missing from photo set)
V1543-24 - (uninteresting)
V1543-25 - 10:21 (approximately) judging from the scene on TV. Mineta is not on a line with anyone! Idly looking at, I think, some screen
V1543-26 - 10:22 on TV. Mineta isn't seen, but there seems to be a general debate, Cheney standing; wouldn't Mineta listen?
(V1543-27 to -30 missing from photo set)
V1543-31 - Mineta standing behind Cheney, not on the line with anyone!
V1543-32 - Mineta standing behind Cheney, not on the line with anyone!
(V1543-33 and -34 missing from photo set)
V1543-35 - Mineta talking with a man who holds a phone. The same man was already there, holding the same phone, at 10:03 in V1543-14, he doesn't seem to be an aide assigned to Mineta personally.
I can't timestamp the photos after V1543-26. Bohrer snapped 9 or 10 more until his film roll ran out (I haven't identified yet which roll came next). From what I have have seen so far, Bohrer took photos at a rate averaging between 1 per a little more than 30 seconds and 1 per minute. This would put the last picture at somewhere between 10:27 and 10:33. Call me anything you like, but it really doesn't look to me as if Mineta had made any great effort to get in contact with the world outside the PEOC and stay in contact. Mostly, he seems to be receiving information from the other players in the PEOC (and the news media), rather than from the FAA, and he doesn't seem to be constantly relaying info and orders back to the FAA.
At this time, you must decide which evidence to lend more weight:
* The photographs that have real clocks in them and events that we can timestamp to the exact minute, sometimes even the exact second, and that we can also sort chronologically - one shows Mineta entering the PEOC very shortly before 10:18, and clearly after 10:03, and that we can corroborate with time-stamped logs and plenty of testimony
* Or the fuzzy recollections days, months, years after the fact by men who failed their duties and might have lots of motivation to cover their darned arses..
Open your eyes and see: Mineta wasn't anywhere useful, and out of the loop, and not taking any decisions, until around 10:15, and possibly only after 10:30. Drop those oral testimonies, they are lies, or they are badly mistaken. Just let go!
It happened after 9:45
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/press_box/2002/04/the_mineta_myth.html
FAA Event Summary Timeline
Advisories went out from DCC to stop all departures from DCA, BWI and IAD (Reagan National, Baltimore and Dulles) at 9:29 as well as all NAS (National Air Space) facilities.
Separate documents corroborate the National Ground Stop at ~9:45 am.
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!302&authkey=!ALM_j8TkEerGwME&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!303&authkey=!ANwjhp2mV12vAq0&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!304&authkey=!AIriQowZ9eUSCLc&v=3&ithint=photo%2cjpg
Yes, there was a national
Yes, there was a national ground stop at or around 9:45. No one doubts that as far as I can see.
The only person who didn't have anything to do with it was Norman Mineta. He heard about it probably half an hour and more later. It is well established that Ben Sliney at Herndon Center initiated it. Garvey and Belger went along. Minete was told about it when he finally popped into the PEOC.
Time Stamped FAA Briefing Notes
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=E097D925456F1330!305&authkey=!AFGsMH4j06xxOQk&ithint=file%2cpdf
Ground stop was at 9:25 am.
This record was created only three hours afterwards, making it highly credible--- before the spin set in.
Two separate events
The ground stop came at 9:25.
ATC zero occurred at 9:45.
Mineta never said he issued a ground stop, he said he ordered all planes to land (ATC zero).
Still doesn't put him in the PEOC before Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.
Mineta Was Outside The Loop
The FAA did not wait. They recognized the problem and made their decision to stop take-offs 22 minutes after the South Tower was hit. They stopped all landings at DCA, BWI and IAD. Then nationwide. No more departures.
OK, so technically Mineta took this one step further at 9:45 and removed the pilots' discretion, ordering all planes to land ASAP. The question remains, where was he when this occurred?
He claimed he was talking to Monte Belger before and after 9:38. What was Monte looking at headed for DC? Remember that the UA93 flight plan wasn't changed until ~9:56 and the plane crashed seven minutes later, so there could be no primary return after 10:03.
What information was the "young man" receiving?
If Mineta was told to support the official theory he would have said he got to the PEOC after 10:03. But he doesn't. He specifically says he's there before the Pentagon event, even giving such details as the Arlington police officer's report of a plane just hitting the Pentagon. How can all this be confused with an event that was going on in Pennsylvania?
"OK, so technically Mineta
"OK, so technically Mineta took this one step further at 9:45"
No. Most emphatically: NO! Mineta did nothing useful or decisive whatsoever at 9:45, because at that time, he was driving or running around and had not the slightest clue what was going on!
He also never took anything any step further at any time! When Belger mentioned "pilot discretion" and Mineta thought he fucked pilot discretion. he didn't change a thing, because the FAA was taking all planes down, and pilot's had as little discretion already as is safe (pilots of necessity retain a minimum amount of discretion simply because they actually fly the damned planes).
"He claimed he was talking to Monte Belger before and after 9:38."
His timeline is FUBAR. This claim is worth shit.
"What was Monte looking at headed for DC?"
Doesn't matter. He wasn't informing Mineta around that time because Mineta was out of the loop.
"Remember that the UA93 flight plan wasn't changed until ~9:56 and the plane crashed seven minutes later, so there could be no primary return after 10:03."
Folks at FAA were looking at the flight-plan UA93 and confusing the folks in the PEOC. This happened well after 10:00 and is what Mineta overheard after he entered the PEOC at some time between 10:05 and 10:16.
"What information was the "young man" receiving?"
The "flight plan" UA93.
"If Mineta was told to support the official theory"
He wasn't, so all the speculation that follows is void.
"He specifically says he's there before the Pentagon event"
His timeline is FUBAR. He lies or he errs.
He also specifically says he got to the PEOC at 9:20 - that's PHYYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
He also specifically says he got there after Cheney, but we know from multiple lines of evidence, augmented by these photos which YOU timestamped precisely to 9:36 that Cheney did not arrive at the PEOC before AA77 crashed.
Mineta's timeline is FUBAR. Why do you hold on to it as if your life depended on it? What do you have to lose?
Mineta was a complete and utter FAILURE on 9/11. Do you think he would go to the 9/11 Commission and testify that he was a complete and utter failure? Do you think his subordinates would go to the 9/11 Commission and testify that the boss was a complete and utter failure?
Mineta was out of the loop.
The FAA did not wait. They recognized the problem and made their decision to stop take-offs 22 minutes after the South Tower was hit. They stopped all landings at DCA, BWI and IAD. Then nationwide. No more departures.
There are a few details wrong with the above paragraph. Landings at DCA didn't stop until after 77 hit the Pentagon, at least one plane landed after the impact at 9:38. This can be heard in the ATC recordings and confirmed by radar data. BWI and IAD instituted a ground stop when the rest of the country did, but they never blocked traffic from landing. They ended up taking all the air traffic from DCA when controllers started shuffling aircraft out of the area after the Pentagon was hit. When you say "then nationwide" do you mean landings? That's false, the only places in the country that did not allow aircraft to land was DCA and the New York tracon area. New York Center and Boston Center (I believe) declared ATC zero before it was implemented nationwide but allowed aircraft to land within the centers airspace, with the exception of NYC Tracon.
Mineta was out of the loop for the ground stop. This shows that the FAA had the good sense and the authority to act on its own without sitting around with their thumbs up their butts waiting for some cabinet level bureaucrat to bark orders at them, which is what happened when they ordered ATC zero on their own.
OK, so technically Mineta took this one step further at 9:45 and removed the pilots' discretion, ordering all planes to land ASAP. The question remains, where was he when this occurred?
That is false. You have access to the ATC recordings, did you ever hear one single instance of the air traffic controllers giving any aircraft any discretion to land wherever they wanted? I haven't. The article I posted earlier explains it well. Mineta said he was in the PEOC when he gave the order.
He claimed he was talking to Monte Belger before and after 9:38. What was Monte looking at headed for DC? Remember that the UA93 flight plan wasn't changed until ~9:56 and the plane crashed seven minutes later, so there could be no primary return after 10:03.
Monte was looking at the projected flightpath of United 93. The flightplan change at 9:56 would coincide with the approach of United 93 to Washington DC if Mineta arrived at the PEOC around 10:18 as suggested by the photo of the watch. Belger was watching a TSD screen at the FAA headquarters. There are no radar feeds at the FAA headquarters, only TSDs.
What information was the "young man" receiving?
the same information as Belger, the projected flightpath of United 93. You do realize that the information on the TSD has absolutely nothing, notta, zip, zero, zilch to do with primary or secondary radar returns, don't you? If the air traffic controllers put a theoretical flight plan into the system, let's call it Northwest 1234 just as an example, Northwest flight 1234 will show up on the TSD even though it does not exist and there is no aircraft with that flightplan assigned to it.
If Mineta was told to support the official theory he would have said he got to the PEOC after 10:03. But he doesn't. He specifically says he's there before the Pentagon event, even giving such details as the Arlington police officer's report of a plane just hitting the Pentagon. How can all this be confused with an event that was going on in Pennsylvania?
If Mineta was told to sport the official story, he would support the official story, not some convoluted, cobbled up story that tries to paint himself in the best picture as a major player on 9/11 instead of the washed-up, has-been that was two steps behind everyone else that he was that day.
The Arlington officer's report was a later confirmation of what happened earlier.
I'm laughing.
Joe said: You're questioning the integrity of those in the photos? ... Liz & Dick? Condi? Bush the Lesser?, Scooter? Richard Clark?
...or even a correct timeline/time-stamp synched with the "photo op".
All these folks knew their photos were being taken. Reminds me of Hillary's posed response when "Bin Laden was taken out".
Time Stamps
I agree, bio. On at least one video obtained via FOIA from NIST by James Gourley, the audio of explosions prior to B7's implosion was scrubbed. On another it was still intact. And on the '04 FOIA request by Judicial Watch the time stamps for the Pentagon impact show Sept. 12, 2001. Some have suggested that this was the day the security images were cataloged, but they should have been time stamped in real time. So I have no confidence. When FOIA requests can be denied or monkeyed with by the very suspects in question, you have to be skeptical.
i have not seen all photos,
i have not seen all photos, but the photos from Cheneys office could have been made afterwards. it seems that there are just two or three of his closest staff in his office. The evacuation should have happened at 09:36, in this moment Cheney should have been mobbed by goverment officials!
"One of them, Special Agent James Scott, pushes through the group of government officials who are gathered around Cheney (...) and tells the vice president, “Sir, we need to move you—now.”
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a936cheneyevacuated#a936cheneyevacuated
According to the photographer himself
David Bohrer said it was just after 9 a.m. ET on Sept. 11, 2001, Vice President Dick Cheney was in his West Wing office when two or three agents came in and told him "Sir, you have to come with us."
http://web.archive.org/web/20021003222152/http://abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/sept11_moments_2.html
This report from early in the game, 14 SEP 2002.
Tucson, we have a problem.
Newly Released Photos Appear To Refute Norman Mineta Testimony
Hello, I wrote an article about this, where I address the photos of Cheney in his office at the time Mineta stated he was in the PEOC. It can be read here:
https://dotmafia.wordpress.com/blog/
In my analysis, I come to the conclusion that Mineta deliberately lied in his testimony to the 9/11 Commission, having been ordered or pressured by the White House to cover up that he was in Cheney's office - NOT the PEOC - when he overheard the exchange between Cheney and the young officer about the incoming Pentagon plane. I also conclude that the 9/11 Commission was aware of this and helped Mineta in his testimony to falsely claim he was in the PEOC with Cheney when this conversation took place. Any feedback is much appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Incredulity
Hi dotmafia,
thanks for the effort. I think your conclusion is this (my emphasize):
This hinges critically on your incredulity expressed within the parentheses. But: Why exactly can't you believe that Mineta is incapable of being confused about the time? And why would he need to be confused about the location of his arrival?
You have pointed out, correctly, that Mineta's statement that he arrived at the PEOC at 9:20 is wrong.
Now once you have estblished that his timeline is wrong, you must work under the assumption that it is wrong - that he has follow-up errors.
You know that he has, for the purpose of the interrogation, pieced together his timeline from information he got after the fact, mixed with some speculation what it meant. He got his starting point wrong, and throws in info he didn't understand at the time.
I think the simplest conclusion is therefore: Mineta is WRONG. Whether he lies or just errs, he is wrong.
You focus on the photo where Cheney is watching Bush on TV in Florida at 9:31. Another photo in his office has been shown upthread to have been shot at 9:36. If you synch that more closely with archived recordings of ABC's program, you can synch it more closely to between 9:36:05 and 9:36:10. This appears to be the last photo that can thus be synched with TV taken in his office. Assuming that the Secret Service grabbed Cheney right after that photo, say at 9:36:20, and ordered the photographer out of the room at the same time, then they would have had 90 seconds before the actual crash of AA77 at 9:37:52. I don't know how far they had to run, but it is not entirely implausible that they arrived in the secure tunnel outside the PEOC just before the crash (that is just an aside note; it really doesn't matter, as no one down there knew in real time what happened with AA77 or at the Pentagon; information travels with delays when orally transmitted).
Back to Mineta: He is clear that the events he described, with the "young man", happened after he arrived at the PEOC. He never mentions the tunnel which Cheney, Rice, Libby, Mrs. Cheney and their details mention, from which they all relocate into the PEOC proper; conversely, no one mentions Mineta as being in the tunnel before moving on to the PEOC proper. To me, the most plausible sequence of events is that Mineta was the last of all those mentioned to arrive, and he arrived after everyone else had already established themselves in the PEOC, and after the big decisions (FAA grounding; shoot-down) were already taken. He then tried hard to make sense of all the information that was buzzing past his ears then - and failed.
Try thinking this whole timeline through with an assumption that Mineta really arrived at the PEOC after 10:00. Remember, he didn't go straight to the PEOC. He arrived at the WH while that was obviously being evacuated - something that all media described as having started around 9:40, and which was certainly ongoing at 9:50, so that's approximately your timeframe for his arrival. He then first saw Dick Clarke! How much time does that take? Give it another 5-10 minutes, before someone directs him to the PEOC, where possibly, with CoG precautions in place, he might be held up further with entry procedures. All that time, he was essentially cut off from all information.
In my opinion, Mineta's stated timeline serves the purpose of making it appear that Mineta reacted quick, was in on the information loop, and took part in major decisions, when in fact he was running behind and never had a real clue until long after the danger had subsided.
Cart Before The Horse?
What is a "no-shoot down order"?
To have that you'd first have to have authority to shoot.
Were there even any armed fighters within striking distance that had such blanket lethal authority?
Who would provide accurate lat/lon details to the fighters so they could distinguish which aircraft was the terrorist?
For more on this fiasco see (Shortly After 9:04 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Secret Service Notifies FAA that It Wants Fighters Launched; Message Relayed to Air Force Base near Washington
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a904wantsjets#a904wantsjets
It is pretty clear to me that there is no real protection. The system is so complicated it can't get out of its own way.
Once the events transpire the spin goes into high gear and there is perpetual confusion. Welcome to the Merry Go Round,
Help requested
In this photo in the PEOC:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/19728912160/in/album-72157656213196901/
there is in the top left corner a video screen split four ways - looks like a video conference?
Can anyone identify any of those four conference rooms, or the people shown within? Thanks!
Side note: Earlier I talked about the digital clocks on different time zones. I had missed this photo before. Here, the times 16:15/12;15/10:15/17:15 are fairly clearly displayed. I think it makes most sense to inteprete these as UTC/EDT/CDT/GMT+1 (do they have daylight savings time in the UK? That would fit the bill). So photo was taken at 12:15 noon local time. Perhaps that can help with the video conference.
Cheney Photos Show Norman Mineta's Arrival To The PEOC At 10:15!
After carefully reviewing the new Cheney photo series on the Flikr website, I’ve discovered three which appear to show Norman Mineta’s arrival to the PEOC, and that the time was approximately 10:15 AM!
Please have a read and let me know what you think.
Thanks!
https://dotmafia.wordpress.com/mineta-arrival/
Not definitive
But very plausible. Good work.
Two USSS agents identified - I think. 1/2
1.) Rebecca Ediger, Deputy Special Agent in Charge (DSAIC) of the Presidential Protective Division (PPD) of the United States Secret Service (USSS).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_L._Ediger
I first came across here name in the Aug 28, 2003 interview of Brigardier General David Wherley, who was commander of the 113th wing of the CDANG, Andrews AFB.
Wherley relates on how he tried to get Rules of Engagement (ROE) from as high a military source as he could get after the Pentagon was hit (my bolding):
Apparently, Wherley (or Zelikow) got the last name wrong - Editor is wrong, Ediger would be right. We know of Ediger's presence NEAR the White House:
Here is a somewhat more detailed memo on Wherley's phone call with the USSS. This implies that Ediger was at the "WH JOC",
And this is a document I think several here are familiar with - interview notes from several USSS agents. It makes frequent reference to a "DSAIC" who was, at least initially, in the USSS offices in the EEOB, but whose name is always redacted. I assume this would be Ediger, as she was DSAIC at the time and in Washington (as opposed to DSAIC Marinzel, who was with the POTUS in Florida). On top of page 5, we learn that "SAIC Truscott saod that he left his office in the EEOB to respond to the White House shelter area and DSAIC ____ retumed to the Joint Operations Center (JOC). On his way to the shelter, SAIC Truscott met NSA Rice, who was in the White House situation room, and accompanied her to the shelter. Upon arrival at the shelter, the Vice President, Mrs.Cheney, and SAIC Zotto, Vice Presidential Protective Division, were present. VP Cheney was talking on the telephone. SAIC Truscott said that he advised the group to move to thePresidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC)". This was sometime between 9:40 and 10:00, and Ediger was left behind at the JOC.
I have found no other document that informs me about what she did after Truscott left the EEOB around 9:40, 9:45. Gen. Wherley's account however sounds to me as if she was standing next to the VP when he talked to her: "Speaking for the VicePresident, she..."; "...an agent (possibly Editor, this was unclear) who was standing next to the Vice President...". So I looked in the photo set and found a lady standing next to Cheney and on the phone in the time frame of interest - here is one photo, taken at 10:18 according to Scooter Libby's watch:
The same person is already there at 10:03, and in about 20 more photos throughout the day.
Is this Rebecca Ediger?? I am not sure! Is it plausible that Ediger followed to the PEOC some minutes after Truscott went there? Sure, why not, but there is no testimony about this.
The only photo of here I could so far find on the web is this:
https://vincepalamara.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/913c7-ediger2.jpg
No glasses here, somewhat different hair color - those are variable characteristocs on many women. I am really not sure. She never smiles in the PEOC. What's your opinion?
Two USSS agents identified - I think. 2/2
2.) Danny Spriggs, Assistant Director (AD), Office of Protective Operations (OPO), United States Secret Servic(USSS)
Spriggs appears several times in Monaghan FOIA- USSS- Memos and Timelines. Notably:
So judging from what I found in logs and interviews, Spriggs was at the EEOB - but there is a man in the PEOC who resembles Spriggs!
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/tv-review-secret-service-files-protecting-president-article-1.1176201
Here is a photo of Spriggs (in 2011, if the file name is to be trusted):
Another photo, this one possibly from 2012:
(historycommons uses that photo)
Now compare Spriggs with this man in the PEOC:
(In the center, behind Lynne Cheney, to the left of Cochrane in white uniform).
Photo shot at about 10:21 - the earliest time I see him in the PEOC.
(The man with hands raised, between Condi Rice and Lynne Cheney)
Photo shot at 10:22
(The man kneeling to the left of Condi Rice).
Photo shot approx. 1:12 pm
Again, I am not certain this is Spriggs, but I have no better idea. Thoughts?