Bridging the Psychological Gap

This is an entry from my personal blog: murderformoney.wordpress.com. (Do not be alarmed, it is not entirely dedicated to 9/11, however, that was my impetus). After reading Phil Mole's article in http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11/ , I felt compelled to fill in the gaps of Mole's piece.

Skeptics and Conspiracies

There is no consensus among skeptics, except by accident. And typically for different reasons. Skeptics are my people. I understand them. A real skeptic is not afraid to question authority, nor does a skeptic oppose an idea because it originates from an authority. Skeptics are professional doubters–not inclined to a supposition until reasons can substantiate it. It is the analysis of these reasons that sets critical thinkers apart from the advertising-prone masses.

Which is why it pains me to see skeptics defending the official narrative of the WTC collapses without turning a critical eye on the details at its core. There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of “truther” theories concerning the various aspects, and let me be clear: several non-official theories are far more outlandish than the official story. For instance:

  1. The “No Planes” theory
  2. The Directed Energy Weapons (DEW) theory
  3. Any theory that denies the existence of Islamic terrorists hijacking planes
  4. Any theory invoking “remote controlled” airplanes

There are more nonsense “truther” theories as well, but the point is clear: all theories must be judged on their merits against objective standards. The problem is that once a single “truther” theory is demonstrated to be false, that becomes ammunition to shoot down all “truther” theories, thus vindicating the official theory by default. This is called “ground clearing” and it does little to buoy the official theory, only to distract from actual analysis of the official theory.

The WTC7 collapse is, by far, the most powerful prima facie evidence against the official theory–pointing not to any particular conclusion, but most poignantly to the fact that something about the dynamics of the collapse of building 7 is not being understood or explained correctly by the experts commissioned to do so. For many skeptics of the official theory, the video of WTC7 collapsing at around 5:20 pm that day was the wake-up call to investigate further. Yes, WTC1 and 2 looked strangely energetic and not simply a “collapse,” but we could always chalk that up our collective lack of context of the scale of the destruction. WTC7, however, was never hit by a plane. It suffered falling debris from the north tower and fires on several floors, but as yet, there has been no good explanation for why the internal structure gave way–nor especially how it failed in the particular way it did: as if it had all supporting structures severed simultaneously. (That’s 58 perimeter columns and 25 core columns failing on several floors at precise intervals such that the building fell at free fall speed for some amount of time greater than 0 seconds.) There is simply not a clear explanation of how even a multi-story fire, even over several hours could induce that type of failure.

And yet, there are skeptics who in good faith, attempt to dismantle any suspicion surrounding the WTC7 collapse. The article published in Skeptic Magazine (9/11/2006) by author Phil Mole (the conspiracist in me laughs) attempts to close the door on any doubts surrounding any government involvement of any aspect of the attacks that day.

Initially, Mole asks us to doubt the similarities between conventional controlled demolition (CD) and the collapses of WTC 1 & 2. He makes a case for structural damage as root cause of the collapses based on the disparity between CD and the WTC collapses and anticipates the response to his argument:

A conspiracy theorist may counter that the buildings were rigged to begin falling from the top down, but what are the chances that those planning such a complicated demolition would be able to predict the exact location the planes would impact the towers, and prepare the towers to begin falling precisely there?

The chances of predicting which floor the planes would hit is without argument so unlikely as to be impossible. Even if someone went through the trouble to wire the buildings, hope the aircraft get hijacked without incident, etc. how could they know which floor the planes would hit? But this is a lazy case for dismissal. It’s lazy because it assumes two things which aren’t very likely:

  1. The planners were unable to predict that issue and plan for it, and
  2. Technology does not exist to easily overcome this:

Remote control: A remote control detonator is much like a wire command detonator except without the wire. Its done by radio signal. The range of the transmitter and the number of frequencies it is capable of working on varies according to price. The receivers can be set to any frequency the owner wishes.

Radio detonation devices have been around for decades. Combined with emulation software, in the hands of a professional, they can play Beethoven on a structure. The ability to detonate from any given floor would be a requirement of this operation. What fool would leave that to chance? One thing can be postulated with confidence: if there was an actual plot to facilitate the destruction of the towers we can be sure it would be perpetrated by professionals. Mole’s case for dismissal is hardly serious.

But Mole’s just warming up.

The first plane struck the North Tower (Building 1) between the 94th to 98th floors and hit it head on, burrowing almost directly toward the core of the building. The second airplane struck the South Tower between the 78th and 84th floors, but sliced in at an angle, severely damaging the entire northeast corner of the building.4 Compared with the North Tower, the South Tower sustained damage that was both less evenly distributed and significantly lower on the building’s frame, requiring the weakened point to support more upper building weight than the corresponding crash site on the North Tower. This explains both the tilt of the building as it fell toward the weakened corner, and the fact that the South Tower fell first despite being struck after the North Tower was struck.

Here Mole speaks anecdotally to explain the 58 minute collapse of WTC 2–the last hit but the first to fall. And admittedly, 58 minutes seems a short amount of time. But so is the 102 minutes it took for Building 1 to fall. And even the 8 hours it took for WTC 7 to fall seems exceedingly fast and violent compared to the damage done. But this is just a feeling. The point remains: comparing the fall times of these buildings as “slow,” “medium” and “fast” does little to clarify the official explanation, nor, more importantly, does it help to clarify the mechanisms that actually caused the collapses.

Secondly, Mole employs an “is-ought” argument for nature of the destruction witnessed. This is indicative of an uniquisitive thought process that essentially says “well, of course it happened that way!” Even though the South Tower was the second building hit and was hit at an incidental angle compared to the North Tower, Mole makes a perceptional argument, saying in essence, “intuition does not serve us well in this situation because the South Tower, although hit later and less directly than the North Tower, was a more catastrophic blow by virtue of the asymmetrical damage–not in spite of it as would seem more in line with basic physics.” As in much of the NIST literature regarding the collapses, the theoretical cart is put before the forensic horse.

After giving birth to that turd of a non-argument, Mole moves on to the issue of the fire temperatures upon which so much hinges:

… most agree that the temperature probably reached 1,000° Fahrenheit and possibly higher than 1,800° F. Flames of this temperature would be far short of the approximately 2800° F needed to melt steel, but they would have been sufficient to severely reduce the structural integrity of the metal.

My emphasis. This central tenet of the official story acknowledges that the only fuel sources in the WTC complex at the time in any real volume were hydrocarbon sources, wood, paper and plastics ignited by kerosene. With this acknowledgment comes the additional requirement that the fires be hot enough to cause the massive and violent structural damage we all witnessed that day. To this end, supporters of the official theory have made much use of misunderstanding the difference between gas temperature and material temperature. Mole is no exception:

Even if we assume temperatures of no higher than 1,000° F during the fire, we would still have more than enough reasons to expect damage severe enough to result in eventual collapse.

Temperature of what? After reading this, I cannot help but picture Mole in a wide-collar, polyester suit and a fake-ass smile waving a brochure for a “once in a lifetime opportunity”. No thanks, Phil. First and foremost, what temperatures is Mole referring to? Gas? Surfaces? It is poor science to say the least, to conflate the maximum temperature of a heat source with the maximum temperature of a material that may or may not have been exposed to that source. This point is so basic, I feel like making it explicit will insult your intelligence. Yet, Mole writes his piece with authority, as if his word puts the issue to bed once and for all.

Office fire simulations conducted by Underwriters Laboratories under the direction of NIST found that temperatures went above 1000F for only a few of the tests, and when it did, it could not sustain it for much more than 8 or 10 minutes. They used a variety of materials but through the course of testing found that the surrogate material combinations of wood, paper, plastic and hydrocarbon fuels were irrelevant to the outcome of the tests: a little over 1000F for about 10 minutes was simply as hot as they were going to get.

The one factor which affected the outcome most was material arrangement. Several simulations broke down the furniture and various surrogates into piles. Not surprisingly, the heat curve went higher, but for a shorter amount of time than the undisturbed, more fuel-scattered tests. The results support Eagar and Musso’s original estimates of a maximum gas temperature of about 1100F, but with the added knowledge that these temperatures could not have been sustained for more than about 10 or maybe 20 minutes at most.

Furthermore, NIST acknowledges early on that of all the steel they sampled (which amounted to approximately 1% of all the steel) the hottest exposure temperatures they could document were about 250C or just under 500F. Yet it seems Mole, as well as NIST, must presume the existence of higher temperature-exposed steel despite the fact that the only steel in the official record found to have gotten hotter was the mysteriously melted steel reported in the FEMA/BPAT Appendix C report:

Evidence of a high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near surface microstructure.

It is unclear why supporters of the official conspiracy theory are so incurious about these samples. Given that one sample is definitely from WTC 7 and the other sample is either from WTC 1 or 2, this cannot be dismissed as an isolated event. Given that there are first-hand account of molten steel, these samples seem to fall into the category of corroborative evidence for such. Unsurprisingly, Mole is neither willing to mention the FEMA/BPAT study nor take the accounts of eye witnesses seriously:

… the sources in question are informal observations of “steel” at Ground Zero, not laboratory results. To many people, any grayish metal looks sufficiently like steel to call it “steel” when speaking informally. To actually establish that the substance in question is steel, we need analytical laboratory results using atomic absorption (AA) or another suitable test. It seems far more likely that the metal seen by the contractors was aluminum, a component of the WTC structural material that melts at a much lower temperature than steel and can look superficially similar to it.

My emphasis. But we do NOT need to take anyone’s word for the melted steel recovered by the FEMA/BPAT team, yet there is not even an acknowledgment of its existence by Mole. Why not? And how “superficial” is the similarity of molten steel to molten aluminum? And so, with a couple of passing comments, Mole washes his hands of any and all considerations of molten steel or iron.

So, I have to ask Phil Mole: Why didn’t you consider all the evidence surrounding molten steel and iron when you were dismissing the non-official accounts of what happened to the WTC complex? Why didn’t you consider the FEMA/BPAT report or the USGS report which contained evidence of extremely high temperature reactions? Why not take into account all the evidence before making a judgment in regard to the legitimacy of non-official theories of the collapses?

Until you make yourself clear, we can only assume.

I am not the first to respond to this, as it has been more than 2 years since the article first appeared in Skeptic Magazine, however, my objective was to make these issues accessible in a quasi-Socratic method, that is, by allowing the reader to make up his own mind when presented with unpolished facts.

I can only conclude that

if they're not being paid to disseminate misinformation, then they are simply blinded to logic by their own hatred of all things conspiracy theory. There's no other explanation.

Have you thought of submitting this article to the same or a similar skeptic magazine?

Also: Molé's reference to "informal observations ... [of the molten metal] "by contractors" ignores the fact that it was also firefighters, fire chiefs, engineers - including structural engineers, demolition contractors, and even an iron worker commenting on molten metal or molten steel seen in the debris pile. They wouldn't know what molten aluminum looks like? The author apparently prefers his own conjecture to the observations of relevant professionals.

Practicing what we preach?

This is a pretty good article Jay, thanks for sharing it. But in one aspect of it, it appears you do the same thing that Mr. Mole (how apropos I must say) does IMHO. Maybe I am missing something or my point may be out of context but here you write:
"and let me be clear: several non-official theories are far more outlandish than the official story. For instance:

i. The “No Planes” theory
ii The Directed Energy Weapons (DEW) theory
iii Any theory that denies the existence of Islamic terrorists hijacking planes
iv. Any theory invoking “remote controlled” airplanes"

Although I certainly agree with the incredulity of the first two, the last two may be somewhat myopic and do not seem to consider all of the evidence.

If one fully accepts your position on both items 3 & 4, then one must believe that the hijackers actually flew the planes. But later, you write quoting the article,

"A conspiracy theorist may counter that the buildings were rigged to begin falling from the top down, but what are the chances that those planning such a complicated demolition would be able to predict the exact location the planes would impact the towers, and prepare the towers to begin falling precisely there?"

and counter it with,

"The chances of predicting which floor the planes would hit is without argument so unlikely as to be impossible. Even if someone went through the trouble to wire the buildings, hope the aircraft get hijacked without incident, etc. how could they know which floor the planes would hit? But this is a lazy case for dismissal. It’s lazy because it assumes two things which aren’t very likely:
i. The planners were unable to predict that issue and plan for it, and
ii Technology does not exist to easily overcome this:

Remote control:" (remote ignition of demolition charges)"

But if one is thinking that through to its ultimate conclusion, then you are saying the planners did knew where the planes were going to strike the buildings. If so, if we accept the earlier notions you dismissed, then the planners are counting on amateur pilots who've never flown a 767 before outside of a simulator to strike the building precisely where needed. I am presuming of course that once the demolition is setup, there is no variance in the order the charges must go off.

This appears as highly risky to many of us which is why the remote flying of the planes is the presumptive technology used to overcome this risk. If you have read Aidan Monaghan's excellent paper on this subject at the Journal of 9/11 Studies (http://journalof911studies.com), you would find that this is a very plausible scenario. (see also this article by Kevin Ryan http://digwithin.net/2012/06/15/from-renovation-to-revolution-was-the-pentagon-attacked-from-within. Just like you note the long standing remote detonator technology, remote flight technology has been around for decades as well.

Please know I am not posting this comment to criticize, but to enlighten and educate a point of view you may not have considered. Again, we have no absolute proof, but the preponderance of evidence, in my view anyway, seems to lean towards the planes being remotely controlled. Hope it helps.

Once again, thanks for sharing your article and keep up the great efforts in speaking our for truth.

dtg

Remote controlled Detonators vs. RC Planes

dtg,

I'm Jay. I appreciate your perspective and I am grateful for any thoughtful criticism. The administrators here have set this site up precisely so that people with critical thoughts and different takes can contribute to a real discussion. I don't mind pointing out the difference between possible, probable, and likely as opposed to improbable, impossible and just plain ludicrous--all while giving some reasons for those classifications. That being said, I think you miss the point about remote control detonators:

But if one is thinking [remote ignition of demolition charges] through to its ultimate conclusion, then you are saying the planners did knew where the planes were going to strike the buildings.

No, that's exactly what I'm not saying. I'm saying it would be much easier, cheaper and more reliable to wire the buildings with radio detonators and let the planes crash where they may. That just makes more logistical sense because it requires fewer externalities. If a crew is already wiring the buildings, and we both agree they were, then radio detonators solve the problem of where to begin the implosion. Can we rule RC planes out completely? No, but it doesn't really get us any closer to a new investigation. It's a theory that makes more problems than it solves. It's so speculative as to be nearly useless in making sense of the collapses.

The physical evidence should be the cornerstone of any theory about the collapses. Remote controlled airplanes are possible. Unlikely but not impossible. But more importantly, the idea simply doesn't have much explanatory power nor usefulness.

The Hijackers

The hijackers, who they were, and what they were up to before 09/11/2001 is a critical line of inquiry.

Mohammed Atta and The Venice Flying Circus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x1MqH2sZUg

http://archive.org/details/Everybodys_Gotta_Learn_Sometime

http://911blogger.com/news/2012-03-18/muslims-did-not-attack-us-911

Remote Control

If I was planning to blow up two skyscrapers under the cover of jet impacts, I would made DAMN SURE they hit the buildings. There is no room to miss. Leaving one tower standing wired with charges would be very risky.

Consider WTC7, not as important psychologically, it appears that someone decided to take it down much later than originally planned. The reports that it was coming down started hours before it did, and there were also reports of a 3rd incoming jet. However we look at this, the end result was tremendously helpful for those of us trying to pull people out of the state of shock that blowing up the Twin Towers induced.

http://911encyclopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Reports_of_a_3rd_Incoming_Jet

Was this Flight 93 or another jet?

Historically, how many kamikaze's pulled up at the last second?

How do you test for an RC plane?

Jkeogh,

It seems my dismissal of RC airplanes has ruffled a lot of feathers here. Not my intent. As noted in a reply above, I do not deem the idea impossible but rather unhelpful in making sense of the collapses.

Considerations of RC or Terrorist-piloted planes is a secondary consideration to the physical, undisputed forensic evidence. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. (I personally think it is very unlikely that the planes were flown into the towers via RC, but only from logistical concerns.) Either way, it doesn't change the underlying theoretical short-comings of the OCT, nor does the distinction change the nature of the tangible evidence.

Speculation has its time and place, and no investigation is complete without a helpful dose of it, but I simply do not see the utility of speculating on whether the planes were flown via RC or Terrorists. It is a distraction that takes away from that which cannot be disputed: reaction temps of steel, chemical signatures of incindiaries, by-products of high-temp reactions, etc.

Anyone wishing to have that discussion, feel free. But I think it's a waste of thought energy.

Good queston

If we can't test, then we are not doing science.

The name and link I dont have handy, but I am sure other readers can fill this in. Someone did calculations on the the final approach of Flight 175, taking into account the maneuver it executed right before impact. Aidan Monaghan can fill in the blanks here. I'll ping him about this thread.

I should refrain from speculating.

Application of "Remote Control" Term To 9/11 Planes

Often it seems with respect to 9/11 that the term "remote control" implies a less plausible remotely located human operator guiding a covertly modified Boeing jet. A more plausible application of the term would address a remote RF accessibility to and seeming capability to affect the course of a Boeing 757/767 circa 2001 via their already existing RF datalinked autopilot systems supported by augmented GPS guidance.

This technology is addressed in detail here:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/AutopilotSystemsMonaghan.pdf

The following visual and mathematical examinations of UA 175's last 13 seconds of flight in my opinion support the view that at least UA 175 (if not all the 9/11 planes) were seemingly under autopilot control, which if correct would complicate the official story for at least several reasons:

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2010/Monaghan_Analysis.pdf

Boeing 757/767 GPS guided autopilot systems were seemingly accurate enough to have impacted the WTC buildings where they did by design circa 2001.

RC Clarification

Aidan,

I see the distinction you make, and it makes a difference to my idea of how such an operation would have unfolded. You've clearly done a ton of difficult work into figuring out the relative probability of a human vs. augmented autopilot vs. a CWS-manipulated flight path, and I appreciate your time and work. It is certainly above my pay grade. With that said, I simply do not see the utility in this line of thought for 2 reasons:

1. It is difficult to imagine a good test to verify one way or the other how any of these planes may have been piloted.

2. Excess speculation adds little to the discussion.

I mean no disrespect at all, at all. I simply don't see the utility of the discussion if it cannot be established one way or the other.

Regards,
Jay Howard

I agree to the extent that

I agree to the extent that bringing awareness to the problems of the official collapse theories does not require any particular belief in what hit the towers. Going along with the hijacked plane narrative does not take away from the main message, and indeed it helps, in the meantime, in appealing to the largest possible audience.

I think we lose people, and open ourselves to vulnerability, when we start nitpicking over the lesser details.

Official Hijack Tale Unproven and Problematic

The government's claim that Muslim terrorists crashed airplanes on 9/11 is essentially unproven. No eyewitnesses, videos, images, fingerprints upon controls or even specific confessions are available in support of the claim. Just FDR data download files with one data file time stamp predating the data's recovery and two FDRs with no inventory control serial numbers. Seemingly unconvincing and even suspect evidence.

"Inside job" demolitions of buildings struck by planes flown by foreign terrorists reportedly unable to fly them seems to be a problematic chain of events. America-hating terrorists with dubious skills crashing planes into buildings later destroyed by the American military-industrial complex? A seemingly unlikely partnership.

As for verification tests for an airplane mode of control, the geometry and calculations within the provided source demonstrate the very small margins for error regarding impact with WTC 2 via the observed 1.5 mile constant radius turn of UA 175 under crosswind conditions

First We Have to Bridge the Gap

Aidan,

If you are having a conversation about how the planes were flown, and it's between other 911 truther types (not being flippant as I am one), then that's an interesting proposal with interesting data.

But that is not my program. My aim is to open a new, independent investigation. And the best way I know how to do that is to harness massive public support (via outrage) over the current failure of an investigation.

The way I see it, everyone watches police procedurals enough to understand when an obvious piece of evidence is being overlooked. These bodies of forensic evidence need to be 1. pointed out as actually existing 2. recognized by official agencies, and 3. incorporated into a working theory of how the towers collapsed.

If that can happen (and it's a monumental "if"), then AND ONLY THEN, does it make sense to look into the other questionable aspects of the events leading to the collapses. That is, if you're trying to get people to wake up and say "WTF???" then it does no good to start with a speculative theory about how the planes were piloted. That doesn't hit the psychological action buttons because it can be too easily rationalized as "out in left field" or "irrelevant" or "that sounds exactly like the type of nonsense that conspiracy types like to make up to sound conspiratorial."

It doesn't hit home. It doesn't get us any closer to a new investigation. It only matters after we have a theory that deal with all the PHYSICAL evidence available.

As for verification tests for an airplane mode of control, the geometry and calculations within the provided source demonstrate the very small margins for error regarding impact with WTC 2 via the observed 1.5 mile constant radius turn of UA 175 under crosswind conditions

That's great, but in most people's heads, they can just say "the hijackers got lucky" and all your work evaporates from their mind. It simply doesn't carry psychological weight.

Official Hijack Tale & Demolition Hypothesis Incompatible

"That's great, but in most people's heads, they can just say "the hijackers got lucky" and all your work evaporates from their mind. It simply doesn't carry psychological weight."

So you propose presenting to the public the view that the military industrial complex behind the WTC demolitions simply hoped that the accused ameteurs "got lucky" so that their plans for massive WTC sabotage could proceed?

Even the layperson realizes that this is not a logical "conspiracy theory", hence not presenting scientifically based evidence of 9/11 flight sabotage undermines efforts to gain public acceptance of the demolition evidence.

"That doesn't hit the psychological action buttons because it can be too easily rationalized as "out in left field" or "irrelevant" or "that sounds exactly like the type of nonsense that conspiracy types like to make up to sound conspiratorial."

Critics have said the very same of the demolition evidence and yet it has gained tremendous support. Scientifically supported views can defeat labels offered by critics.

Psychologically speaking, the greatest strength of the official tale is the psychological effect of Mohammad Atta's evil looking drivers license photo displayed each time the media alleges the guilt of him and the other 18 regarding the 9/11 flights. Thus, any scientifically supported view that can undermine this apparent psychological operation seems worthwhile.

It doesn't matter to the people on the fence

First, I'm not making an accusation about who in our government was complicit in 9/11. That is exactly what is wrong wtih much of the approach that we (as questioners of the OCT) take. That is a conversation amongst the converted. So is a discussion about RC vs. terrorist-piloted planes vs. muppet-guided planes. If you want to have a conversation insulated by people who already believe the government was behind 9/11, that's your prerogative. That is not my intent because I don't see that as a useful program to effect change.

My audience is comprised of those who think something is rotten in Denmark, but do not have the knowledge to put together an alternative working theory about the collapses. Knowlege of the WPI steel, what a "eutectic" is, the iron-based microspheres, the structure of the towers and WTC7, the red-gray chips, etc., these constitute bodies of physical evidence that have been dismissed by the OCT and its advocates.

If one realizes that all of this evidence must be accounted for, then their own capacity to make sense of the world will sway them to our side. In addition, any theory which discounts these pieces of evidence as unreal or irrelevant is a weaker theory by virtue of the fact that it cannot account for pieces of evidence as well as other theories.

The question of autopilot or RC piloting is too distant a concern for those who are not yet convinced the OCT needs to be revised. The more fruitful path to illuminating the short-comings of the OCT is to point out how much relevant evidence has been left out of their account. Let them see the failure of the OCT to make sense of the tangible, forensic evidence, THEN AND ONLY THEN will they be receptive to the idea of multi-layered planning.

And finally, I don't see how CD is in any kind of theoretical conflict with terrorist hijackings. It may be the case that there were no terrorists with box cutters, but either way, I do not see how that proposition has any effect on the possibility of the buildings being wired for demolition.

You Seem To Lean Toward Much Of Official Story Being True

"Let me be clear: several non-official theories are far more outlandish than the official story. For instance: ... Any theory that denies the existence of Islamic terrorists hijacking planes"

You appear to believe that the unproven official hijacker plane crashing theory is true but also that the the building destructions were some type of "inside job". This is a seemingly quite unlikely coincidence that will not gain wider public support and would even confuse the uninitiated. Two unrelated interests just happening to want to destroy the WTC on the same day?

A good lie is always partly true

The trick is figuring out how to sift the wheat from the chaff.

But in terms of an effective message to bring to the unconvinced, but skeptical masses, I think it is a disservice to pile on a theory about how the planes might possibly have been flown in remotely when we haven't even dealt with the tangible evidence in our hands.

All the speculation about how this or that could or might have happened is a wasteful distraction when we have yet to figure out what the source of the red-gray chips was, or if the eutectic that ate through the WPI steel is the result of the same material or a different incendiary material.

Put another way, I just am not moved by speculative theories about how the planes were flown when there is a working theory (however flawed) that can make sense of the crashes themselves. That is, the RC Plane theory creates problems: if you want to say the terrorists didn't pilot the planes in, why go through all the trouble of getting these guys into the country, into the airports and onto the planes? Who was on the video tapes at the airports? Any good lie has to be partly true, and it's just not much of a stretch to imagine there were some crazies willing to hijack planes and fly them into buildings. Don't misunderstand me: I do NOT believe all their identities are accounted for, but again, that is another speculative theory which only pulls our attention further away from the forensic evidence at hand.

Put yet another way: The absolute BEST case you can possibly make for an RC plane theory still isn't enough to convince anyone to open the investigation back up. So, knock yourself out, but you're spinning your wheels.

a disservice?

"I think it is a disservice to pile on a theory about how the planes might possibly have been flown in remotely when we haven't even dealt with the tangible evidence in our hands."

Are you suggesting that it should not be researched? Is publishing a paper a disservice?

The vast majority of researchers (Aidan included) are not trying to convince others to look into 9/11 by telling them about the RC planes theory. I dont want to put words in your mouth, but you seem to be suggesting that people are doing exactly that, and that it's a disservice.

"figure out what the source of the red-gray chips was" sounds like you need to look more carefully into this [1]. Do you have a hypothesis to test, or are you casting doubt without citing the research? If you mean literally "what the source was" as in "who made the explosives" then please examine the published research [2] on that question and make more specific statements or questions.

[1] http://911encyclopedia.com/wiki/index.php?search=dust&go=Go&title=Special:Search
[2] http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf
(this is only a small sample of what is available on these subjects)

"A good lie is always partly true", yes, that's the point, disinformation is always mixed with real information, the only reliable way to separate the two is by using the scientific method.

I'm not one to say what you or anyone can publish

I just can't give a shit about RC plane theories when there isn't ANYTHING to back that up other than suspicion. You and Aiden M. can write about any subject you like. But if your thesis statement is something to the effect of "I suspect foul play", that's simply not good enough.

We ALL suspect foul play. That's why we're here. Show me a theory that can be tested, or simply accept the fact that I'm not interested in this question.

And if you aren't interested in getting others to look into 9/11, that's fine. But that is what my aim is. And the best way I see to do that is to keep the logic train on the tracks and not let too much speculation get in the way. I have some faith in the common sense of people. Given the evidence, some knowledge of chemistry and physics, I believe (perhaps wrongly) that people will convince themselves of the reality of an inside job. Too much speculation turns people away in a hurry.

And no, I'm not trying to cast doubt on the research that's been done in regard to the physical evidence. I think those are the important questions because they have potential to lead to concrete answers.

ok

"And if you aren't interested in getting others to look into 9/11, that's fine."

I think you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say, I will attempt to be more clear.

Specifically, I know of nobody who is using the RC aircraft theory as primary evidence, or suggesting we put it forward as such.

Are people handing out material to people on the street about it? Is it posted about often?

No, and no.

I get the impression that you think I disagree with your point that it's not the most useful way to get people involved. Re-reading my comments, I can understand why. For the record, I agree that remote control of the aircraft is not a subject that will convince the majority of people to look at the most easily understood scientific evidence (like dv/dt(wtc7)). For some people the evidence that is easiest to understand is not even based on physics[1][2]. I sincerely regret not making this clear in my original comment. I shouldn't be speculating about it in the first place, and I appreciate your post. I do not agree that "Any theory invoking remote controlled airplanes" is "far more outlandish than the official story". To someone who has not realized that the buildings were brought down with explosives, sure, RC is far more outlandish sounding than hijacker control.

I appreciate those who publish papers for peer review on subjects that they are interested or have expertise in. Sounds like you you do too.

[1] http://911blogger.com/news/2009-10-06/facts-speak-themselves
[2] http://archive.org/download/Everybodys_Gotta_Learn_Sometime/DVD_EverybodysGottaLearnSometime.dd.iso

"Of that which we cannot speak...

...we must remain silent."

Look, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Clearly you've put a lot of time and effort into this question of RC planes. I can respect that, but I cannot see the utility of this question.

Maybe if you told me what your end goal of this line of questioning was, I might be able to make better sense of your efforts. As it stands right now, there is no payoff to this line of inquiry. We don't have a means to test for RC planes, so it will remain a deeply speculative subject. Perhaps you can clarify what you see the goal of your efforts to be.

"...we must remain

"...we must remain silent."

As in not publish a paper on it?

You want to decide if a line of inquiry is worth investigating by first getting an opinion on the end goal of a line of questioning?

That is not how scientific research is done.

What can be said about it?

It's not like I feel the urge to censor anything, so please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. But yes, I do indeed think it's a waste of time to consider re-writing that part of the official story. And to be clear, I find MUCH wrong with the official accounts of the terrorists, like how fast they were identified, the fact that many of the individuals identified turned up alive in various countries, the terrorist passport found among the WTC wreckage, and a host of other incongruous "facts".

It leaves open a lot of room for speculation, but in the final analysis, if all that can be said about the planes' trajectories is that they arouse suspicion because of how smooth they are, well, it's just not a very strong argument. It doesn't mean you shouldn't publish a paper on it. It just means that even after you put in a lot of time and effort, not much has been clarified from all that work. It doesn't get you any closer to a good answer because there is no good test in this case to differentiate a human from an RC-piloted plane.

Until someone devises a good test to differentiate a human-piloted plane from some other method--after the fact of the crashes, then I'm not interested. I wasn't interested before, hence the sentence in the OP to that effect, and seeing the best work done on this question, I'm still not interested. So go write all the papers you want. But (and you said this yourself, JKeogh), if you can't test for it, you aren't doing science.

Truer words were never spoken.

2 hypotheses

1. Electronic guidance was used

2. Electronic guidance was not used.

Interested people can examine the evidence pro and con for both.

You did not quote me. I said "If we can't test, then we are not doing science."

It's a very general statement. You modified it to make it sound more absolute. As if I was suggesting there is a iron-clad test available. By test I mean make measurements based on evidence. I should have said that instead of "test". When examining complex historical events, repeatability may be difficult. We can resort to simulations, models, or full scale reconstructions if the resources are available. You may only be able to calculate probabilities based on the information you have. For example x% of pilots can reproduce it on their nth try. This does not mean that there is no way to approach the question scientifically, or that there is something wrong with asking it. The evidence may not rise to the level necessary to convince someone one way or another, and that is ok. This is why the researchers I know of don't use the RC hypothesis as primary evidence.