911Blogger website being upgraded - your patience is appreciated
911Blogger is going through a long delayed and much needed site upgrade.
This is why the site may look kind of funky and certain parts of it may not be fully functional at times.
The site will also be taken offline from time to time, as needed.
Once the upgrade is finished the site should load faster and we will be able add greater functionality to the site, as we deem appropriate and useful.
Please use the comments section on this blog to ask questions about the upgrade and feel free to post suggestions. This is YOUR site, too.
We apologize for the inconvenience and appreciate your patience and forbearance during this site upgrade.
Thanks again for all your contributions to the site, it is the users who really make it what it is.
BTW, we seem to be getting a lot of guest traffic right now, if you are interested in getting a user account, please use the "contact us" button in the upper left corner and we will be happy to help you set one up.
Be well and make sure to introduce someone new to the truth today, it is the 11th of the month, after all.
Cheers!
- LeftWright's blog
- Login to post comments
Comment voting
I'm hoping that this gets upgraded to where we can see how many ups and how many downs each comment receives, not just the net total. That's my no. 1 grievance re the site and from talking to others I know I'm hardly the only one. (In the fullest interests of transparency, it would also be helpful to see which people voted each way; that would truly expose the political faction based voting to the sunlight.)
I'll add more suggestions if I can think of some.
Good Suggestions
Agreed.
Agreed
Show up and down vote totals. I'm all for hiding posts that get voted down just to save column space. The posts are still there if you want to read them.
I find the votes useful to see which arguments fly and which ones do not.
Those who don't like the voting can disregard it.
Comment voting
I agree that the ups and downs for each comment should be visible, not just the net total. The reason for this agreement is that there could be enormous interest in a comment, say, dozens of up and down votes, but the net might only read 3 or 4.
So this feature would offer the advantage of reflecting the amount of interest the comment generated.
Show the raw scores, don't hide the unpopular comments
I would prefer that if you are going to retain voting, you make the raw scores visible (I have seen this recently on another blog), and do not hide the unpopular ideas. Unpopularity does not equate to without value. If it did, all of us would be down voted by the world at large - although not as badly as a year ago I hope.
Absolutely agree
I think that if you are willing to put your name next to a comment or on a blog about this stuff, no reason why we shouldn't know how you voted on a particular topic. Let's see who really stands where, not so we can be more divided, but so that we can fill the gaps and create more cohesion and understanding between all of us.
How?
I am curious how that would be displayed...
Example
If there's one thing the gatekeeper Daily Kos gets right, it's its comment voting system.
When you look at a comment, you see this:
Then when you click on the vote totals, you get this:
(Edit: I don't have an account there; those screenshots show how things appear when viewing as a guest.)
See my dialogue with LeftWright below
Perhaps it might be a bit too transparent to have such a system like that of Kos. While I was initially thinking that such a system might work to eliminate grudge-based (i.e. faction) voting, in reality the political voting would probably continue, just in the open, and it could be a net negative and things could turn ugly. (And wouldn't the bad guys love to see that?)
Plus, after all, one of the cornerstones of democracy is that of the "secret ballot."
There seems to be unanimous agreement that the current system is no good. The real question now is do we have a system showing both totals, or no system at all? The argument in favor of a vote system is to see how much interest a comment generates; simply for curiosity's sake, it's nice to know how many people are involved in the thread. The argument against a voting system is twofold: First, truth should not be a popularity contest. Second, the vote system can bring out the laziness in people, simply clicking on a button to disapprove, rather than take the time to type a reasoned reply to the comment they disagreed with.
Agree
Show up and down votes.
Every day for years I tune into this site. Thanks for being here
Daily, for years, I come to this site. 9/11 is the most important issue of our time. And so this site is one of my first stopping points everyday.
Me too
Amen.
Me too.
Thanks for manning the front lines in the battle for truth.
911 Blogger has been my most frequented site since almost the beginning.
BTW what happened to the "blog post" box that used to be on the left side below "recent headlines?"
"Recent Blog Posts" panel.
I think I got that "blog post" link fixed Phaedrus. Thanks for the feedback. Let me know. Peace.
Thanks for what you do
For the past few years 911Blogger has been my homepage that I see each day. It's really great to see all of the input and articles posted by everyone involved. Allow varying opinions and differing aspects of 9/11 Truth to be discussed because if you are honestly a member of the 9/11 Truth Movement your ultimate goal is that we achieve a new, thorough and "real" 9/11 investigation and that the results lead to the criminal prosecution of those who are actually the perpetrators of this mass murder and treason. (We have enough people trying to divide us. We don't need to do it to ourselves as well.)
Hear, here :) !
Many thanks
agreed as well
best site on the web ...
9/11 Blogger, where would we be without you?
Your value, to human history, as a historical learning process, has been and still is, to this very day, incaculable. We've made a difference, and you have 911Blogger, BIG TIME! Keep up the good work all.
911Blogger
rules. Thanks for keeping us all conected.
To do item
Go to CNN.com where there's a new front page news story about settlements and health benefits for the first responders.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/11/world.trade.center.suit/index.html?hpt=T1
Please do NOT post evidence about 9/11 - that's been done.
Either make a perfectly relevant comment about the first responders need for health benefits, or,
go to this post
--------------------
"SeekTruth911"
9/11 was an inside job.
Google "Loose Change: Final Cut" and watch it online for free.
--------------------
- and just vote it up, that's all that's required - let's not spam that topic with 9/11 truth info, not this time, let's be respectful k? Thanks.
P.S. I go under the monicur of NewAgeMan there - just made a very simple and I think impactful suggestion, in four words - so we're done our job there I think, so, please, let's not blow it in that discussion, that's important.
But do vote up the 9/11 was an inside job comment by SeekTruth9/11 - which got a LOT of likes (24 and counting) right out of the gate on that topic. Looks like we're having an impact.. ; )
So if you go into that comments section - just be careful and don't screw it up, whatever you do. That's why I say, do not comment, just login in, and vote up that one comment, and otherwise leave it be, but watch the thread, just be restrained. It's funny, but no one's really commenting, they are agog maybe, about how the discussion is unfolding.... Don't Screw That Up.
Heartfelt...
The best way out of a problem is through it. (author unknown)
Thank-you for this blog through which we all travel together.
With great appreciation for ALL that you do,
MB
Leftwright
Leftwright, you are so patient and accepting which is needed with this fiery group of truth-seekers! I may not be "actively" involved right now, yet I am learning so much here at 911blogger. As well as connecting with some lovely, lively and very perceptive people.
The factions here, especially over cit, surprise me....still, when I look at my own family there are plenty of differences and arguing daily. So that's how it will be!
Thanks for being here
lillyann
Get Rid of Voting System
all together. This archaic system has only served to foster enmity betwixt hard liners of various camps within the movement.
Recruit more moderators. Whip out the ban hammer from time to time.
Reduce the amount of non-9/11 related topics being imported here.
Bring us back to the standards we had under the guidance of Reprehensor and DZ.
Disagree but voted up
For the word "betwixt" - one of the few words that can make me chuckle...
Somebigguy???
"Bring us back to the standards we had under the guidance of Reprehensor and DZ."
Not to mention "somebigguy." He was one of the originals as well and I miss him.
i suspect he's still lurking around the blogger "cyber offices" with a new identity.
Or at least keeping an eye on the proceedings from afar.
Zombie has a point
I personally think that no vote system at all would be better than the current one. Though I would prefer a better voting system like the kind I mentioned above.
No vote system would mean that people actually have to... heaven forbid... READ a comment to decide whether or not they like it, rather than be influenced by groupthink from the outset.
If a comment has +3 or -3 points, a reader can see this before s/he even reads the comment and as such, the reader is being "led" a certain way; being told what to think, if you will. Simply being a 9/11 truther doesn't make a person immune to succumbing to groupthink mentality.
Think of any number of times you've been walking down the street, or in the mall, with even just one other person. You're both involved in deep conversation about this or that, and then all of a sudden, one of you says:
"Uh, hang on, where exactly are we going?"
"I don't know, I was following you."
"Well, I was following you!"
Even with just one other person present, our independence is often compromised as we fall into the herd mentality.
Can't say I agree w/r to Reprehensor though. (DZ, otoh, was great.)
He exhibited dictatorial, unilateral control of the site. He became famous for banning people left and right, that at this time 12 months ago, this site's traffic ranking was abysmal and many people in the movement had been thoroughly alienated from blogger; I know several well-meaning activists in person who were banned from here. The sites traffic ranking, and amount of participants, has increased since Rep left. The current moderation team seems more committed to democratic principles.
No Comment Scores
The comment scores are silly - it's like being in school. Most people who write here are intelligent and everything is worth reading. An unpopular opinion is often the most interesting.
Unpopular Comments DO get Read
Unpopular Comments DO get Read
Voting helpful on MSM sites
I'm not sure how helpful the comment scores here because most of us are in agreement on the fundamental issue of getting to the truth about 9/11. On the other hand, when the subject comes up on a MSM news site as here on CBC, it is really heartening to see so many Truth seekers comments voted up and so many OCT supporters comments voted down. This really demonstrates a fundamental change in the opinions of the general public. A few years ago these opinions would be rare, if even allowed by the moderators. Take heart in the fact that the landscape is shifting and stop worrying about a minor issue about up and down voting.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/12/compensation-workers.html?ref=rss
voting helps
I like the voting. I like to encourage some and discourage others. I rarely have time to post that thoughtful, constructive comment I want to post, but I do have time to vote up someone who posted the comment I did not have time to post.
When I do post a comment, I get a kick out of how it's voted up or down. Tells me whether or not I need to try another way to get the intended information across. It also gives me insight into the general thinking of the 'active' 911blogger participants. That information affects my own participation in the comments sections, in a positive way.
I see no purpose in hiding any comment, no matter how many down votes it gets.
Peace
Bruno
WeAreChangeLA
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
Since LeftWright has been on the team looking after the site, the frequency of his commenting has dropped dramatically, resulting in many threads on which he formerly would have had something to say left bereft of his gentle and sound influence.
To make matters worse, when he does comment he no longer places the words above at the end.
A sad state of affairs.
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
Love Alison
Well...umm...thank you
(blushing)
I do still put my tag lines on my comments, but only when they are not related to moderating (so this is how you can tell when I am acting as a moderator in the comments and when I am commenting as just another user).
I hope to get back to commenting more, but moderating and working with 911tv.org, AE911Truth.org, the Northern California 9/11 Truth Alliance, truthaction.org (when I can) and our local WAC groups keeps me very busy, as well. (so does having two teenage daughters!) On top of that I have been trying to build a bridge with the local peace groups, an uphill battle if there ever was one.
Btw, I'm in the middle of organizing two combined events featuring AE911Truth and FF911Truth on May 7th and 8th for the SF bay area, with 911tv.org producing a dvd from the May 8th event. More details as they become available. The May 7 event will be advertised on a large digital billboard right next to US 101 in San Rafael, CA with many thousands of cars passing it every day (yes, there will be photos posted here).
Thank you all for your input, even the moderators disagree about how best to handle the comment voting, I tend to think we would be better off without it for a variety of reasons, most of which have been stated above.
While 9/11 truth activism can be very challenging and even frustrating at times, I have never met a more wonderful, alive and engaged group of people in my life. It is an honor and pleasure to know and work with you (even those who sometimes think I'm an idiot).
We are all brothers and sisters on this big beautiful ball we call earth, let's keep working to create the world we want to live in. This is the legacy we will be leaving behind for all who follow.
Be well and enjoy the day!
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
I like seeing what people are
I like seeing what people are thinking with the votes, whether up or down. I agree with Adam that it would really be neat to see who voted which way for a little accountability.
Accountability
Agreed. Over on a Jesse Ventura thread I created, someone voted down my opening comment (my e-mail to Dick Russell, which did have 15 and now has 14 points) a few minutes ago. It would be nice to know who this was so that I could ask that person what they found objectionable.
How would you do that, Adam?
"It would be nice to know who this was so that I could ask that person what they found objectionable."
Would you follow them around from thread to thread?
That would be a rules violation and turn the site into a huge, ugly mess, real fast.
Email them?
Would you really do that?
This is one of the reasons why I think we should get rid the comment voting altogether, yes, it provides information, but to what end?
People vote things up and down for a variety of reasons, most having to do with previous disagreements, imo. Thus, this just contributes to carrying grudges and increased factionalization.
Voting on comments can also be a simple and lazy response. If you think someone's logic is off or their facts are wrong, don't just vote them down (as I think too many do), write a civil critique of what you think is incorrect. If someone feels strongly about a comment, then they should post a reply to it, pro or con.
My impression of Daily Kos and other sites where comment voting is reinforced with names is that it just creates a mob mentality where too many people unthinkingly follow the lead of a few strong personalities, totally contrary to the critical thinking foundation of the 9/11 truth movement.
Frankly, I rarely pay attention to comment votes. I sometimes vote someone up if I think they are getting hammered for no good reason or if their comment makes me smile. I often vote my own comments up or down because I like some numbers more than others. Silly, I know, but I think the whole comment voting thing is silly and pointless and should disappear from the site.
The blogs and comments at 911blogger should be fact and logic driven (for the most part, we are still human beings first) and not driven by personalities, imo.
Think about what kind of community culture we want to create on the site and how comment voting and increased factionalization would affect that.
I really think we should get rid of comment voting altogether.
Be well, brother.
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
I somewhat see eye to eye with you
The Loose Change forums, the Pilots forums, WTCDemolition, and the CIT forums do not have any comment voting systems.
I also agree that part of the beauty of democracy is a "secret ballot." Maybe the Daily Kos system would be too transparent for our purposes. After all, we're not required to divulge to anyone who we voted for in an election.
But I think that Question911, above, makes a good point with regard to the fact that a total number of votes, both ways, reflects how much interest any particular comment got. If we do have a vote system, it absolutely should show the totals for each, even if it doesn't show who voted each way. There were a few Pentagon threads where I had the first comment and it ultimately yielded 0 points; I itch to know whether 10, 20 or 50 people voted on it.
For the above reason, I'm still partial to having a vote system rather than none at all but I think what is apparent on this thread is that there seems to be unanimous agreement that the current system is no good, or as outlived any good it once had.
EDIT: To answer one of your questions though: No, I would not run around confronting them from thread to thread about a downvote if we had a Kos style system. I would just, to quote a Beatle, "let it be." ;-)
Why does it matter?
"There were a few Pentagon threads where I had the first comment and it ultimately yielded 0 points; I itch to know whether 10, 20 or 50 people voted on it."
Seeing as how people in the movement are still evenly split on what happened at the Pentagon, one would expect the up/down votes to cancel out.
Critical thinking is not a popularity contest.
I really want people to put more thought into their comments and voting something up or down and moving on is too often an easy out, it's too passive.
["Three down votes and it disappears! (now five, btw) I don't have to look at it, I don't have to think about it." This is just another form of denial, which is the single greatest impediment to educating people about 9/11 truth today. Do we want to encourage denial on this site or in society, in general? I'm really tired, maybe I'm making a straw man argument, you tell me]
I've been ridiculed for forty years because I don't hesitate to express my opinion on things I care about. Peer pressure is a real problem and we are better off reducing the ways people can leverage it against others negatively, imo.
Think about how many people read your blog or comment and never comment on the blog or vote on your comment.
Bottom line, what does it really mean? Why do you really care so much?
We may look into installing a comment vote module that shows the up/down vote totals as a test, but I see no benefit in showing who votes on what.
In any case, it is good that we are having this discussion, and I'm sure that there are other things about the site that we should be discussing out in the open, as well.
Once we are sure that the site is bug free following the the completion of the upgrade (which appears to be done now), then the moderators can focus on making some changes to the site and see what the users think.
The site is loading much faster for me now, as I hope it is for everyone.
Cheers!
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
For the record
I (and probably most others) always thought the comment hiding was extremely silly.
Seeing as how people in the movement are still evenly split on what happened at the Pentagon, one would expect the up/down votes to cancel out.
Yes, and of course for the net to be zero, an even number of people must have voted. I was simply saying, echoing Question911's comment, that it would have been nice to know if 18 people voted each way, or if 30 people voted each way. Just for curiosity's sake, nothing to do with the ego. Curiosity about statistics are what inspired the creation of things like Alexa.com. ;-)
10-4 for now.
Just a note on the origin of the voting system here
It actually was installed so that people could express their opinion on a message without having to spend time explaining, rebutting, etc. And while that might seem lazy or denial-inducing in most normal dialogue situations, it was created to address a very specific problem that was going on at the time (and probably still is to some degree). Basically, the site was getting flooded with no planes spam and even though all their "arguments" had been fully rebutted a thousand times, each new post from each new no planes sockpuppet demanded that it be done again... and again... and again... and again... So basically it was a way to combat that phenomenon: don't spend your valuable time arguing with a desk jockey from Langley, just vote them down and move on. And while it may not have been the perfect solution, it really did help a lot. Once faced with simply being ignored, most of that endless nonsense died down.
Just trying to add some historical perspective on the voting system here.
_______________________
The Eleventh Day of Every Month
truthaction.org/forum
twitter.com/truthaction
Thanks for that, cosmos
Historical perspective is always useful and that makes perfect sense.
I'm guessing that this was begun in the days when anonymous posting was still allowed , yes?
Cheers, bro!
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
Yes,
and also when "debunkers" like Mark Roberts, Ronald Wieck and the rest of the JREF gang were allowed here.
Actually at that point
I think anonymous commenting had been done away with for at least 6 months or a year by then. I'm not sure of the specific dates but I'm pretty sure it was around early 2007. Anyway, no problem... good luck with whatever you guys decide to try with the site. I think your involvement here is a great thing so keep up the good work!
____________________
The Eleventh Day of Every Month
truthaction.org/forum
twitter.com/truthaction
I agree
The views that LeftWright has expressed above parallel my own pretty closely.
Regards
Hi LeftWright...voting system should stay!
It seems to me that the voting system is required, due to the very complicated subject we are dealing with. A total tally could be helpful on less popular threads?
I personally vote on every comment on a thread I'm watching. When I say voting that also includes "no vote" as well.
I chose to use as much influence here as I can, as I feel I have the experience to. If a subject is being discussed that I have little knowledge of I research it before voting and before commenting.
In the past there have been many, many examples of people down voting what looks to be dodgy evidence. This sends a message to the watcher that this comment is of interest, enticing them to look in to what was said! It has happened that someone like myself has looked into what has been thought dodgy and found it credible. On finding this one will speak up in support of it!
With the voting system democracy lives but with the wealth of experience that lives here also:)
Kind regards John
LeftWright has a great point.
This is one of the reasons why I think we should get rid the comment voting altogether, yes, it provides information, but to what end?"
One of the best!
I'm always impressed by the stability, clarity, thoughtfulness, and elegance of this website. Sure, tweek it a bit, but leave it more or less the same.
Hi and thanks for your work!
I'm not sure if it has already been mentioned but can we have uplinks to Face Book. Twitter etc as it will massively increase traffic here and is necessary to keep this place....happening!
It will also make an activists life a lot easier!
Kindest regards John
Twitter -
Scroll down and look at the lower left hand corner and you should see our Twitter link, not sure exactly if that is an uplink or what it does.
We are looking into doing something with Facebook, part of doing the upgrade was to facilitate things like this.
Keep those good ideas and suggestions coming, as well as all your hard work on behalf of 9/11 truth.
Cheers from up over!
Face Book is REALLY IMPORTANT!
Currently people like myself, John Gold, Kevin Ryan and many, many other 9/11 Truth Advocates are meeting and educating new people. By us discussing 9/11 with the broader public and very importantly with elements of the Peace Movement (Cindy et al) we have the ability to "normalise" us in their minds:)
911Blogger is the best popular and broad source for 9/11 education. Please make it work for Face Book:)
Kind regards John
Face Book -
I have a Face Book page that is only for my 9/11activism, but I have yet to take the time to learn it or use it much as I only have so much time and it seems like rather a big mess to me. I only friend people I actually have met in person, btw (I guess I'm old fashioned).
I also know that it makes profiling everyone who uses it automatic, and that is a huge red flag for me.
That said, one of the other moderators is going to create a 911Blogger Face Book page and feel free to suggest what should be done with it.
I educate people every day in person, that's what works best for me.
I also post things at various locations on the web and that sometimes yields some positive results, but I generally don't know how effective it is as I don't get as much feedback as I would like.
Cheers!
If you're open to 2 small suggestions:
One:
I wish commenters' names were located at the TOP of their comments. (Right now, I have to scroll all the way to the bottom of many comments just to find out who's "talking" then go back up and read.
Two:
Conversly, I wish the "Reply" button was located at the BOTTOM of the comment so I could just hit reply right there when I've finished reading it. (vs scrolling all the way back up to reply.