The Debate: 9/11: The Physics
Phaedrus Tue, 09/09/2008 - 4:20pm
Steve Pakin is airing the following tonight on TVO.
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7
It is described as "The physics of 9/11: why do the rumours live on? 9/11 Truthers, the laws of probability ... and the laws of science."
Please check ou the poll on the left side of the page.
It's currently at 56% MIHOP and 21% LIHOP.
Michael Keefer and Graeme MacQueen will be speaking for our side.
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with a title like that...
...you think that they would invite some physicists on the panel, no?
I have a better title:
"The physics of 9/11: why do the rumours live on? NIST, the laws of probability ... and the laws of science."
Who is Wodek Szemberg?
This is what some "skeptic named Wodek Szemberg seems to think. My response is in next comment.
Phaedrus
Wanting reality to be what we want it to be
Posted on: 09 September 2008 by Wodek Szemberg
Last time The Agenda tackled the subject of 9/11 many of our viewers wrote in attacking us - me, to be precise, as I was the producer -- for unduly psychologizing the subject. Many were upset that rather than discussing “the facts” we chose to spend most of the program discussing the nature of the conspiratorial mindset. In the same way as those who believe in God don’t want their faith ‘analyzed', people who threw their lot with conspiracy theorists, do not want to wonder what is it about them that so wants to believe the worst about the US government. And yes, at the end of the day it is about wanting. In face of reality that is impossibly complex, about which we posses rudimentary knowledge, much of what we claim to know is an act of will. Many conspiracy theorists do not claim to know what happened. They claim to be merely asking questions, looking for inconsistencies and connecting the dots.
As the 7th anniversary of 9/11 approaches, we are returning to the event that will continue to shape our sense of how fragile the modern world is. It is fragile, both because of the ease with which our sense stability can be undermined by a few and it is made even more fragile because our political culture is so bereft of respect for authority that almost a third of Americans and about quarter of Canadians can imagine a Western democratic government perpetrating mass murder on their own citizens in order to be able to advance its geo-political plans. If truth is to be told, everything in me does not want to believe that. That doesn't mean that I know that I'm absolutely right. It means that I'm not willing to risk spreading nihilism in the name of 'skepticism'.
But that does not mean that questions and theories about what could've happened on that September day 7 years ago do not need to be confronted. The recent publication of a report by the National Institute of Standards and Technology about what brought about the destruction of WTC 7 bulding offers us an opportunity to get back to this hotly debated subject. This time, however, we will devote the hour to just facts. Not all of them, of course. Just a few salient ones. Do I think that the discussion will change anybody's mind? I doubt it. When it comes to beliefs mascarading as factual discourse, the will to stick to one's guns is all-powerful.
My response.
I couldn't let this go unanswered, especially so close to the anniversary of the day that defied science and reality. And especially since I have to work on the 11th and wish I could be doing something in memory of the innocent who died for some evil SOBs greed and power lust.
Too many unanswered questions.
Steve. I've been skeptical about the official story of 9/11 for a long time now but unlike you I wouldn't be a bit surprised if a "western democratic government" could consider the losses on 9/11 to be collateral damage in the pursuit of a very large agenda. Which is total domination of the world's declining resources. And subsequent events have borne out that theory. Just look at how the USA through NATO and their own forces have been pushing deeper into the former Soviet sphere of influence and capturing the oil-rich area around the Caspian Sea, not to mention their control of the Middle East oil-rich area. Tell me that's not connected or that it would have been possible without the impetus of 9/11. But put all that aside and let's deal with just the facts. If there is even one thing about a major crime that is suspicious or unexplained, it deserves a proper investigation. Well, here are 40 reasons to doubt the official story. And that is only a portion of the coincidences and unanswered questions. Why is it possible to believe that such a thing might have been possible in Nazi Germany of Communist Russia or any other era in history but it is impossible to conceive for some people today. Do we live in some magical loving period of history ruled over by honest and benign leaders who only care about the prosperity of their citizens? I think not Steve. When people and governments are motivated by greed and power, no evil is unimaginable. Do yourself a favor and imagine yourself in Germany in the early 1930s and you see the truth behind Hitler's agenda. Now project it to today. That's how a lot of us see the world today. Thanks. Arnie Hyma
posted by _____ on 09 September 2008 at 8:39 PM
He is apparently one of the producers
according to their website.
He also has a facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Wodek_Szemberg/618544223
Oxymoron Alert! ...Oxymoron Alert!
Excuse me Phaedrus!!!!! (in a good natured way) but, the two words, debating...and...physics, ...do not belong in a sentence together like that!
...Rocket science works because humans (fully) understand the basic laws that govern motion in our solar system. (and the rest of the universe from what we can see
The Twin Towers and WTC 7 cannot have collapsed to the ground (in the time that they did) unless explosives were used ...period...
Mother nature has laid down the law and...thats the way it is!
If we remember just 2 laws..from high school physics #1). (gravity) acelerates mass @ 32 feet per second
#2). (transfer of momentum) two equal masses.... one @ rest t the other going v.10 mph....ect ect.
No debate necessary!
It should be titled.... "a lesson for people who dont comprehend basic physics from 9/11 truthers"
Address comments to the host.
Yohnzeye.
As you probably can guess, it wasn't my title. I only copy/pasted it.
I appreciate your ironic support but I would encourage you to direct your comments to Steve Pakin here
http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=3&message=com...
He's the one who needs the physics lesson. I'm already convinced:-)
Indeed Phaedrus!
Yes! I was writhing with irony and I'm glad you are one who can appreciate ironic humor ...and I will most certainly be directing a comment to Steve Pakin. and voting in his little poll/survey too!
*sigh*
This is why 9/11 Truthers get no respect from real engineers.
"The Twin Towers and WTC 7 cannot have collapsed to the ground (in the time that they did) unless explosives were used ...period..."
Not a single explosion blast was caught on tape before or during any of the collapses. Even if the videos were tampered with, altered in some way, it's reasonable to assume that a modicum of incendiaries, focused on key areas of the building could cause a "progressive collapse" without loud blast sounds and typical explosives.
"If we remember just 2 laws..from high school physics #1). (gravity) acelerates mass @ 32 feet per second
#2). (transfer of momentum) two equal masses.... one @ rest t the other going v.10 mph....ect ect"
If only you understood snap-through dynamics, yield limit and basic kinematics, you might revise your statement. Besides gravity also accelerates masses that are accumulated during the smashing and breaking during a collapse dynamic too! Those masses will break, move downward, accumulate and increase the force, with all the chaos of breaking going on. If the initial plunge was too much, why wouldn't the increased mass of the material broken from the dynamic load continue collapse? The WTC was only designed to handle 3X it's static loads.... what do you think will happen when those loads are greater than 10X?
Controlled demolitions USE GRAVITY to do most of the work. They use a modicum of devices to remove equilibrium, and the dynamic snap-through of overloading masses using GRAVITY ALONE finishes the job.
Obviously debate is necessary and maybe some book reading.
Great Observation!
I suggest you crack open your physics book to the chapter on "Conservation of Momentum" so you can understand the ridiculousness of your argument.
And by the way, the "chaos of breaking" is an expenditure of gravitational potential energy which does not get to contribute to the kinetic energy of the "gravitationally-driven" collapse. The more breakage (and expulsion), the slower the collapse.
To allege that overloaded floors resist a falling mass in generally the same manner as air molecules is, well, ...
I take this tone because I assume you think the OCT is feasible.
Or perhaps you have a paper that uses "snap-through dynamics" as its basis to show how a building could collapse at such rapid speeds?
I didn't think so. This is why you don't get any respect from me.
*snort*
Darth Kazi said,
"Not a single explosion blast was caught on tape before or during any of the collapses."
I say,
I'm not so sure about that Darth! go back and watch the numerous videos (of the collapse of towers 1-2 and 7) "you might revise your statement"!....hundreds of firefighters and witnesses heard explosions anyway.
DarthKazi said,
"Even if the videos were tampered with, altered in some way, it's reasonable to assume that a modicum of incendiaries, focused on key areas of the building could cause a "progressive collapse" without loud blast sounds and typical explosives."
I say,
I'm glad you are aware that thermate/thermite is a possible candidate for the type of explosive that was probably used to bring down all three towers.
DarthKarzi said,"
If only you understood snap-through dynamics, yield limit and basic kinematics..."
I say,
Why dont we help you out here Darth! l....lets build a 110 story building on paper, and we will make it collapse as fast as mother nature will allow us to!
(first) we will eliminate all steel columns, and suspend all 110 floors from wires that will support them, but will break as soon a anything bigger than a feather lands on them. will that help it fall faster? (say yes)
....takes care of alot of that messy "yield limit" math that you J-weffers confuse people with too!
(second) we will make the floors out of rubber so they wont break apart into dust like the concrete floors did. That way you can use every bit of the mass from the floors above and transfer it to the floor below (total transfer of momentum) ...will that make it fall faster? (nod head now)....takes care of all that messy "vectoring"and "snap thru dynamics" math that you J-weffers confuse people with too!
(third) we will do it in a vacuum!
no matter how you slice it Darth...there were thousands of tons of concrete between the radio tower on top of WTC 1, and the ground, and even if we make the tower floors "break loose" (on a feathers weight) and not turn into dust on the way down (give it all to you on a silver platter) you still cant make a 1360 ft tower fall in 12 seconds...(without incendiaries or explosives.)
upload?
anyone record it?
Podcast.
It may be available as a podcast.
Some of the past shows are.
Podcast.
Podcast here.
http://www.tvo.org/podcasts/theagenda/audio/TAWSP_Dbt_20080909_779322_0_...
BTW Steve Paikin is fair and objective and the OCT defenders are offering the usual speculative arguments.
Poll
78% MIHOP
Sweet.
Great Observation!
see above