#
Eh. (8+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, vcmvo2, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, Translator, Doodad, 0wn, BoiseBlue

Reporting on a truther conference doesn't somehow render the ban on CT theories inoperable.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:52:58 AM PDT

*
You are assuming a relationship between (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, snootless, GANJA, Lujane

investigations to find answers/solve contradictions and those who advocate a particular theory of cause and complicity. Dr. Jones does not do that. He is a scientist attempting to find answers by using the scientific method.

Many on this site are interested in his work and I reported on it.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:19:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
I'm not assuming anything. (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, Doodad, BoiseBlue

I'm saying that a conference on 9/11 "truth" is not something that can or should be reported on here. As to his conclusions, it's faintly disingenuous to say that he's just "presenting facts"; obviously, the truthies believe that the towers were brought down by controlled demolition, so anything that could be even implausibly construed as pointing in that direction is going to be interpreted as such. They're not going to look at alternate explanations such as, say, these being remnants of the original building process. This because that's not what they're looking for, in the same willful hey-look-at-me-cherry-pick-evidence way that has made truther a pejorative.

Judging by the response, by the way, it doesn't appear that many people here are in fact interested in this.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:32:43 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Dr. Jones and this diarist (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, Lujane

simply want a simple hypothesis to be considered and investigated. As people dedicated to the scientific method, we are more than happy to go exactly where the evidence leads.

I respectfully request that you not attribute motives or ideas to me which I do not have.

I honestly do not believe I know what happened to bring down those buildings in the way they came down. But I would like certain hypotheses considered that have never been considered by NIST.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:05:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
Of course you want the theory to be considered (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, BoiseBlue

The whole point is promoting a denial movement. Since these folks have zero evidence, what they do is repeatedly ask the public to consider their ideas. And try to make sure they stay in the news.

And anyone who would call the "Journal of 9/11 Studies" an academic peer-reviewed journal is doing a bad job of pretending to be on the fence.

Calling the main truther organ an academic peer-reviewed journal is like calling the Holocaust deniers' "Journal for Historical Review" an academic peer-reviewed journal.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:14:05 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Caj--I don't call it that, it's web site does (0+ / 0-)

you are welcome to call into question the quality of its peer-reviewing process. I don't know what it is. I don't know if they get people out of their cliche to review or not. Until I see their article in other, more mainstream pubs, I share your skepticism of it.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:22:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
Oh, bullshit. (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
scrutinizer, Bouwerie Boy, Doodad

Spare me your tripe about only wanting the truth. The buildings came down because planes hit them. I watched the damn thing.

As to certain hypotheses being considered, there are quite a few web sites that do nothing but.

This is not one of those web sites.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:14:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
o
Do you mean Senator Johnson from AZ? (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
GANJA

He wrote an op-ed in the Arizona Republic today.

Most on this site realize that the official story is full of suspicious discrepancies and unanswered questions. However, the story is so big and volatile that the conversation is best kept to sites devoted entirely to such inquiry. Try www.911blogger.

Dailykos is devoted to electing Democrats, and the questions you raise are a rabbit hole that will distract from this purpose.

by kennedy joss on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:01:35 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
I agree with this and will do so in the future (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, Lujane

As I wrote below, in the past several months I have engaged in several diaries on this topic and thought the conversation would be different.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:13:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
Yeah, I know. I've been (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC, Massconfusion

watching you. Again, please delete this tin foiler.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:17:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Uh, this diary does not exist. It is a hologram (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Massconfusion

like them so called planes.

/snark.

A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

by Doodad on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:33:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
*
That's very true (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC

Which is why the diarist was banned.

Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

by BarbinMD on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:10:17 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Good. (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

I cleaned out my bookmarks to 9/11 CT-debunking sites some time ago, so I don't have that at my fingertips anymore.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:30:24 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

#
And here come the truthers.... (6+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Caj, mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, 0wn

Diaries like this always get ugly.

And I don't see how this isn't out of compliance with the 9/11 CT ban.

by BoiseBlue on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:55:36 AM PDT

*
Not sure what you mean by "truther" (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
rmx2630, snoopydawg, Lujane, rudy23

I am simply one of about 60% of Americans who are interested in ongoing investigations into this event. Could you say why that is a bad thing in your eyes?

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:20:46 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Simple: (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Doodad

Planes flew into tower, tower fell.

I'm not a scientific genius by any means, but that seems about as simple as can be. Exactly what other "truth" are they trying to discover? What is the point of their "investigations?"

The fact that there was a chemical present in the dust he allegedly collected does not change the fact that the towers fell because of the planes crashing into them.

by BoiseBlue on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:24:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

+
What of Building 7? (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
rmx2630, people for truth, Lujane

No plane crashed into that one yet it fell many hours later at nearly the speed of freefall.

by CTPatriot on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:29:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
Gawd. (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, Doodad, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

Yeah, nobody would expect a building to come down just because half of it had been ripped off by the collapse of a million-ton skyscraper a few dozen feet away, just because it was on fire, just because it contained hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel, or any combination of these factors.

And out come the truthers, which is why this diary should be deleted.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:35:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Half of it had been ripped off? (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
rmx2630, Lujane

I would love to see the pictures of that. As of now:

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:38:17 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
There was major (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

structural damage to the side facing WTC 2. If you're going to deny that based on semantics games, it just demonstrates that yes, you're a conspiracy theorist.

Bonus points for proving that with a truther video, by the way. There goes your "I just want to talk about the news" defense.

Delete the diary before you get banned. Seriously, this is not the place for your tinfoil.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:42:45 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
i don't deny there was structural damage to WTC7 (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
rmx2630, Lujane

I was responding to the statement "half of it had been ripped off."

The asymmetrical structural damage that was done is a very important point: Because of asymmetrical damage, the building should not have collapsed symmetrically, which it did.

That is why I posted the video. I'm just trying to respond in respectful way to my fellow Kossacks, whom I respect and wish to engage with.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:53:22 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
Like I said (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

semantics games about the meaning of "half" to cover up that you're a truthie.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:59:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
#
Meia whores, the posting (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, MBNYC, BoiseBlue

of 9-11 conspriracy theory diaries here is a violation of the long ststed and widely known guidelines of this privately owned web site. Please read the Daily Kos FAQ. There are many site on the internet where you can ask these questions. The Daily Kos is not one of them. Please delete this diary or I will report it to the admins.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:07:12 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
If an admin asks me to take it down, I will (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled

immediately

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:15:07 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
You may not get the chance. (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC

They don't ask. They ban. Last chance to delete this before I report you to the admins.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:19:03 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Just do it. (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Mediawhores is now linking to truther sites in the comments.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:44:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
I always like to give them a fair (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC

chance to delete before I contact the admins. Besides, I needed some time to grab a few examples of his 911Truth activity from his posting histoey for my email. Have a look:

http://www.dailykos.com/...
http://www.dailykos.com/...
http://www.dailykos.com/...
http://www.dailykos.com/...
http://www.dailykos.com/...

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:49:18 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#

*
Yup. (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

"Shadow government". Why these people always remain blind to the true danger, that of our shapeshifting lizard overlords, is inexplicable to me.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:54:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
BTW--I didn't call it "Shadow Goverment" Bill (0+ / 0-)

Moyers did in his special. Although I agree with him. What is your opinion of Bill Moyers, as opposed to me?

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:03:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
I think he's awesome. (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy

I also think he means something other by his term than you choose yo read into it. Unless, of course, you can provide evidence that shows Bill Moyers to be a truther like yourself.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:05:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
He's gone. Bye bye media whores (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC

Can't wait to meet him in his next UID.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:18:21 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
What the hell (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

is so difficult about understanding that this crap just isn't tolerated here?

And why do we never have diaries about our shapeshifting lizard overlords? I'm tempted to post something like that out of sheer spite.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:26:45 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
*
Diaries such as these (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

...do serve a function. I can skim the comments and identify people to ignore later. Some of them are batshit crazy conspiracy theorists, and some are whiny self-appointed twits with nothing better to do than stamp their feet while running in circles screaming "Mommy! Mommy! He posted something against the rules!"

by AndreMA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:20:54 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Community policing is one of the responsibilities (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Mia Dolan

of members in this community. You might take a refresher look at the Daily Kos FAQ. I agree with you however that diaries such as these really do bring out the weird ones for future identification. Thanks for stopping by. BTW AndreMA, what brings you to this long dead thread?

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:38:32 PM PDT

[ Parent
*
o
+

"community policing" is all well and fine. It doesn't (or shouldn't) include name calling such as I've seen here. If someone feels a diary violates the policies, they should politely point it out.

If the diarist disagrees and the other party feels strongly enough about it, they should report it to admin and STFU. I've seen a number of these diaries in which civility goes out the window, and it's usually those who decide they want to enforce policy who lose their cool first.

I'm a conspiracy theorist. I believe that 19 hijackers conspired to hijack planes on 9/11. I also feel that the investigations weren't as open as they could have been (possibly due to simple bureaucratic CYA and the secretive nature of the Bush administration)... and that unfortunately helps feed the lunatic fringe.

Am I supposed to be scared that you "took a peak [sic] at some of my past"?

by AndreMA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:50:15 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
Ummmm, please point out where (0+ / 0-)

I lost my cool with the diarist? I warned him politely three times to delete this CT diary before properly reporting it to the admins. What is your problem with that? 911 conspiracy theory diaries are absolutely forbidden at this site and are considered troll diaries by the owner, admins and membership. As such the poster deserved everything he got.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:59:23 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
I never said that you (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

personally lost your cool. My apologies if I replied to the wrong post. Although I suspect the better way for you to have addressed your concerns was to comment once, notify admins and then move on to a diary or story that you didn't anticipate being deleted and found more substantive.

I was making a general comment that diaries like this serve to identify two distinct groups of people: Conspiracy nutcases and those so enamored of the role of "community policeman" that they go overboard. I swear, if they had a taser...

A quick "find" on this page for words like "stupid" "dumb" and "idiot" does seem to show that almost all of the name-calling is in one direction.

Arguably, the application of the label "truther" is also ad hominem when used here.

I hope you'll accept my apology if it seemed that I was implying that you were one of the twits on the "policy enforcement" side. I hope you'll apologize to me for hastily labeling me as a "screwball" when I in fact have generally made comments that support the Commission results.

by AndreMA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:17:12 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Yes, I did misunderstand. No worries (0+ / 0-)

apology accepted. I too apologize for the misunderstanding. Have a good night :-)

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 05:29:42 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
...and had left the tab open in my browser while off doing other things. I was here earlier... (0+ / 0-)
o

o
HA! I just took a peak at some of your past (0+ / 0-)

comments and now completely understand why you showed up here...

It's odd, though... (5+ / 0-)
Recommended by:
antirove, geminiartist71, gatorcog, Wbythebay, Real History Lisa
...that there's such a scarcity of wreckage on the pentagon lawn in pictures taken prior to the collapse of the facade. Nor have I seen any recovered turbine blades, which would not have "vaporized" as they are designed to withstand extreme heat.
If the Pentagon event is precisely as the 9/11 Commission concluded, why hasn't the FBI released the security camera footage from the gas station and Sheraton hotel that they seized immediately after the explosion? What possible security interest is served by keeping it under wraps?
Personally, I discount the missile theory... as you say, a number of eyewitnesses claim to have seen a plane - and although they differ radically on the size of that plane, people aren't very good at judging the size of things without objects of known size for context. Whatever tin-foil theories are out there, though, the government itself invites by not releasing further data.
by AndreMA on Fri Mar 24, 2006 at 09:42:57 AM PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This ]

Yup AndreMA, diaries like this are as good as buglights for attracting the screwballs.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:47:19 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
There's a thing called "context" (0+ / 0-)

In the bit you quoted, I said:

Whatever tin-foil theories are out there, though, the government itself invites by not releasing further data.

It's "screwball" to note that less than full release of information invites speculation, and that some of that speculation will be nutty?

Or are you saying that I'm a screwball because I "personally discount the missile theory" and note that "people aren't good at judging the size of flying objects"? Both of those statements of mine -- that you quoted -- support the 9/11 Commission findings.

by AndreMA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 04:56:12 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
#
Back this up (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
scrutinizer, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

Because of asymmetrical damage, the building should not have collapsed symmetrically, which it did.

Why? Why should asymmetrical damage cause the building to tip as it fell?

Do you have any actual equations to back up this claim, or is it just intuition? The laws of physics tell me that once the bottom of the building is compromised, something that massive is going to fall straight down.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:18:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Sure, Caj--asymmetrical collapses are the norm (1+ / 1-)

Recommended by:
Lujane
Hidden by:
MBNYC

except in the single case of controlled demolitions.

How Do Buildings Fall?

What Really Happened

Archiects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth His slide show provides multiple examples of asymmetrical collapses and their causes.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:29:10 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
Zero (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

...linking to CT web sites.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:43:22 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Which one are you referring to? (0+ / 0-)

I still don't understand why sites and people devoted to investigating official claims (and who do not advocate one CT or another) are always CT in your view.

May I ask for you to provide an example of a question or investigation or contradiction to the official 9/11 theory that is not CT?

I would sincerely appreciate it.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:50:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
Why don't you ask the owner? n/t (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:51:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
Oh, fuck off. (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

There is no "investigation of official claims". There is a bunch of crackpots with conclusions already arrived at piecing together random crap. All of this has been debunked so many times it's painful.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:03:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
o
This is just a bunch of talk (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Mia Dolan

With photos of much smaller buildings that sank under utterly different circumstances. Again, not a drop of actual physics.

People who have actually done the mathematics (google Northwestern WTC) show that at the huge scales of the WTC buildings, the strain on the structures far outweigh their structural strength, causing a straight-down collapse.

For a building to tilt, it has to hold itself together while gravity pulls it. Easy enough if you have a tree or a 13-story conventional apartment building. But the larger a building gets, the more severe the strain to hold together. This is why large smokestacks and even very tall trees end up snapping in two if they topple over---and why a skyscraper would barely even begin to tip before it just broke apart, falling straight down.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:43:03 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
#
I worked in that building, Einstein (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Lujane, Massconfusion

How many firefigters or SSB employees have you talked with? They knew that building was coming down for hours because of all the damage from the debris from the Twin Towers hitting the building.

I felt debris hit the building and that was early. In fact, I wasn't able to get out through the main entrance in front after walking down 43 floors because debris had already blocked it and we all went out through the back.

Try watching another You Tube video as you grasp for more straws.

by NDBoston on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:51:35 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
The transcripts of the firefighters and other (3+ / 2-)

Recommended by:
rmx2630, people for truth, Lujane
Hidden by:
MBNYC, BoiseBlue

workers that day around WTC7 are very, very revealing. After a FOIA request and lawsuit by the NYT, the Port Authority finally released the recorded interviews, which reveal that the building was stable, that the word went out more than an hour before that it was going to be taken down, and that there was an actual countdown prior to the building's collapse:

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:56:10 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
Okay, enough. (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, trashablanca, Triscula, BoiseBlue

Crossing the line with your truther videos, buddy. Zero.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:16:52 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Now your agenda is showing clearly (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
trashablanca, Triscula, MBNYC

Just go post this somewhere else, and take it off of this site.

by BoiseBlue on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:20:20 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
OMGGGGGGG Scary music, YOu Tube videos!!!! (6+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Caj, Bouwerie Boy, trashablanca, Triscula, MBNYC, Massconfusion

This eyewitness has changed his story a few times already. Remember Mike the EMT? What happened to him?

Why don't you and I walk into a few fire houses near the Towers and we can discuss this countdown and idea that the firefighters and Red Cross were in on this too? How's next Saturday sound for you?

Just like Scott Forbes with the power down. You lunatics never fail to amaze me.

by NDBoston on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:22:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
stop insulting Einstein (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:40:53 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
+
Boise--the towers didn't just fall (0+ / 0-)

They fell at nearly freefall speed--which is only possible if resistance below is removed.

Fell symmetrically--which is not possible in a fire-related disaster since fires affect different parts of the structure differently as they "creep"--the videos of that day clearly show the asymmetrical fires, but the buildings fell symmetrically.

Were disintegrated--the concrete into less than .4 microns, which is not consistent with a gravitational collapse.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:35:33 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
In short (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Caj, mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

you're not here to talk about this report. You're a truther.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:37:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Yes, I am here to talk about the report! (0+ / 0-)

Unfortunately, I have had to respond to off-topic posts by some pretty emotional people!

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:39:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
Really? (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Seems to me you and fellow truther CTPatriot are just here to spread conspiracy theories.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:44:13 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
My pootie loves you diary (8+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, mcfly, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, Triscula, MBNYC, Doodad, Cat Whisperer, BoiseBlue

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:09:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
If you are training that pootie to fly a plane (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

you are in BIG trouble dude!!!!!

;)

A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

by Doodad on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:35:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
He was the 20th hijacker n/t (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC, Doodad

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:50:32 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
*
Bingo! A quick peak (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC

at media whores posting history confirms that.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:03:07 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
STOP SUPPRESSINGZZ (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, Doodad, Massconfusion

Teh truthz!

:-)

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:18:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
#
Your first sentence is so contradictory (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, Catesby, MBNYC

They fell at nearly freefall speed--which is only possible if resistance below is removed.

So when the planes flew into the building, and the steel on those floors caved, the resistance below the top stories was, in fact, removed.

by BoiseBlue on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:39:50 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Boise, there were 60 floors below the impact zone (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
people for truth

that were undamaged, completely intact, and unaffected by fire.

By Newton's Third Law and the Law of Conservation of Energy, these intact and undamaged floors were exerting an equal and opposite force on the collpasing floors above.

Even the Bazant theory of the toppling block has problems in several ways:

Each intact floor would have slowed any descending block, and the building would having taken over a minute to collapse.

But the real problem is the video that shows the upper block actually exploding in mid air.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:00:08 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
Dude--- (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

By Newton's Third Law and the Law of Conservation of Energy, these intact and undamaged floors were exerting an equal and opposite force on the collpasing [sic] floors above.

You probably need to go back to class and see just exactly what those words mean. You also need to look at the Second Law, because once a floor fails, it's no longer a static situation. Also, mechanical energy isn't going to be conserved in a collapse like that.

Each intact floor would have slowed any descending block, and the building would having taken over a minute to collapse.

Have you ever just once in your life seen the results of a building implosion? The collapsing floors pick up speed, they don't slow down.

by scrutinizer on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:37:06 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
This is just false (0+ / 0-)

Even the Bazant theory of the toppling block has problems in several ways:

Each intact floor would have slowed any descending block, and the building would having taken over a minute to collapse.

Again, not a single equation to back up this claim.

Bazant's math says the opposite: that the strain force exerted on the remaining building was some 30-60 times what it could possibly endure. In other words, the building offered negligible resistance to the falling mass.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:47:24 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
#
This doesn't even make sense (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

They fell at nearly freefall speed--which is only possible if resistance below is removed.

Virtually everything falls at "near freefall speed." And no, it doesn't require zero resistance below, just insufficient resistance to check the immense momentum of the falling mass.

This is a standard truther trope: the building fell slower than freefall, and they call that "nearly freefall," and then try to use word games to make you think it fell at freefall. Which it didn't.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:20:46 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
I am a scientific genius--- (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, BoiseBlue

As you said, planes flew into tower, tower fell. WTC 7 fell due to damage from the other towers falling. End of story.

Why is this diary here? I thought the no-CT policy was still in force.

by scrutinizer on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:22:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
If you're not observant enough to (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, 0wn, BoiseBlue

see planes flying into the towers, why would one observe the rules.

by palantir on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:58:22 AM PDT

*
Not sure what you mean . . . (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
frandor55

Jones' speech does not call into question the fact of planes hitting the towers.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:08:49 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
Ok, you want to engage. (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, BoiseBlue

Does Jones' speech take into consideration, that in a building of aluminum and steel and which collapsed so catastrophically would in all likelihood produce some thermite residues?

by palantir on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:19:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Palantir--how would a collapsing building (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

produce a commercial product called thermite, which is sold on eBay?

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:22:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
It is not a commercial product (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

its just rust and aluminum dust.

by palantir on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:23:13 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#

*
I'm think you may be wrong about that (0+ / 0-)

Thermite

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:24:34 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
I'm thinking you can use the term (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Thermite and thermite inter-changeably.

pyrotechnic composition of aluminium powder and a metal oxide which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction. It is not explosive, but can create short bursts of extremely high temperatures focused on a very small target for a short period of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...

by palantir on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:27:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
By the way, you make your very own (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

thermite in your basement with an etch-a-sketch and rust

by palantir on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:30:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
pyrotechnic composition-- (0+ / 0-)

how does that indicate it is something that would be produced in a building collpase.

My interpt of the phrase is that it something that has been "composed" for the purpose of "pyrotechnics"

How are you interpreting this phrase?

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:41:23 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
o
AS the man said - rust and Alum. dust... (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

Thanks for the wiki likn though. I can now go edit it to say "can also be used to bring down the World Trade Center, so be careful"

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:46:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Sulpher too--actually that is (0+ / 0-)

the element which lowers the melting point and allows the cutting to take place.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:07:59 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
I was not going to get involved (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

in your stupid diary, but as a trained chemist, pyrotechnician, and certified ammunition handler I can assure you that thermite contains no sulfur. Spelling it with "ph" is either Brit or archaic, and your thinking is certainly archaic. So long, because you will be banned soon. No good regards of any kind, Doc.

Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

by Translator on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:28:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
you are correct, I meant the sulphur-enchanced (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Translator

form of thermite, which is Thermate.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:32:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
Thermate is thermite (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

with an added oxidizer, usually barium nitrate. Still no sulfur. Doc.

Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

by Translator on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:40:32 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
According to this source, it is 2% sulfur (0+ / 0-)

Thermate

Although i'm sure it can vary by manufacturer

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:57:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
#
Having said the above--I am sure Dr. Jones (0+ / 0-)

is open to any feasible explanation of how unignited thermite chips found their way into the dust debris.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:23:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
A deceptive question (0+ / 0-)

No thermite was found in the towers, nor in the surrounding environment.

Prof. Jones claims he found a "signature" of thermite, which is a deceptive way of saying that he found common chemical elements like Iron and Sulfur---which is consistent with thermite, because like everything else in the universe, thermite is made out of atoms.

But if there was any actual thermite or any other explosive in the towers, you wouldn't just find constituent atoms afterwards---you would find the actual explosive material. Jones found none.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 01:51:19 PM PDT

[ Parent ]

#
? (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC

Public video of his presentation at the Decemeber 15, 2007 event was released on May 1 and can be seen below

Hardly a brreaking story is it?

CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

by irate on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:00:06 AM PDT

*
Did not present it as a breaking story (0+ / 0-)

The video was made available on May 1.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:09:27 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

#
This is the epitome of stupid. (10+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
platypus, mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, Triscula, MBNYC, 0wn, palantir, BoiseBlue, Gator1980

When your top "science" expert resorts to heating a piece of metal with a lighter to prove that 9/11 was an inside job,you are truly pathetic.

At 15 minutes in, Jones holds up a tiny piece of metal and then heats it with a lighter, thus proving the steel in the towers could not have heated up enough to cause a collapse.

Then as if to put a stamp on his stupidity he points out, "There was no smoke coming off, there was plenty of oxygen" which evidently proves that the cigarette lighter was so much hotter than the fires at the WTC.

I take this shit peronally. I worked at WTC7 and was there on 9-11 too.My best friend DIED at Cantor Fitzgerald as I ran for my life after the first plane hit.

Media Whores-You're a fucking idiot.

by NDBoston on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:01:35 AM PDT

*
Jones' lighter demo was to show the difference (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, frandor55, Socks the Cat Rocks the Hill

between fire temp, metal temp and air temp. Not to attempt to melt any steel.

It's quite clear you take this personally. Many Americans who lost relatives and loved ones that day, including me, do.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:11:31 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
This diary is also a kind of lighter demo (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, Massconfusion

And I suspect it may be your last one if you don't delete it soon.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:12:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
The Fact That You Lost Friends on 9/11 (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
snootless

DOES NOT ENTITLE YOU TO A MONOPOLY ON THE TRUTH.

Beyond that, the lighter test was simply to provide additional support to the scientific data which was plastered all over your screen. Did you pay any attention to that? It indicates that the material Jones analyzed was consistent with thermite. His results were independently verified by another scientist in another lab.

Many people who lost loved ones in the WTC on 9/11 believe it was an inside job and support these investigations. Do they have any less right to their feelings than you do yours?

by CTPatriot on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:23:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

o
What a bunch of horseshit. (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Massconfusion

My feelings are bit more important since I spent 80 hours a week for three years at a building that was supposedly wired for demolition right under my nose!

Never mind the fact that 3 trading floors had coverage 24/7/365 and we were packed in like sardines after the Smith Barney merger. Steven Jones knows the TRUTH!!

No one has ever posted an example of thermite being used for CD. For that matter, no one has ever posted a picture of a steel beam cut by thermite. The primary commercial use of thermite is welding. The military uses it for emergency destruction of equipment - very limited application. No one has ever used it for the demolition of a large building.

Just to keep you current on the 911 CD, this is where it presently stands.
1. high explosives were used throughout the towers to sever columns.
2. for some reason, thermite was also used throughout the towers to sever columns.
3. additional explosives were packed on each floor to pulverized the concrete/create pyroclastic flows.

In other words, you're an idiot for believing this bullshit.

by NDBoston on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:38:26 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
They certainly (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

don't have any right to have this discussion on Daily Kos. Site policy is very clear on that.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America." - Otto Prince Bismarck

by MBNYC on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:39:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
LOL (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Jones also invented cold fusion and discovered that Jesus lived in Utah 2000 years ago. And he was fired from his job for lying and faking peer reviews.

Sinbad/Crow 2008.

by Mia Dolan on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:27:51 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

#
Thermite is used in welding and cutting steel? (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, palantir, BoiseBlue

So, just how is a skyscraper the size of the WTC assembled? I'd have to guess that there's a good deal of cutting and welding involved - so it's no surprise that you might find Thermite residue, is it?

Please delete this trash - it's pushing otherwise deserving diaries off the recent diary list...

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:07:26 AM PDT

*
Sir, you are assuming that thermite was used (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
frandor55

during the construction of the WTCs and it was not.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:15:32 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Kindly provide proof of that assertion (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, palantir, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:18:37 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

+
How About You Provide Yours (n/t) (0+ / 0-)

by CTPatriot on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:24:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
I don't need to provide proof... (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

...because I'm not the one who's saying those buildings were dropped by Thermite explosions. I'm saying I'm not surprised that there's evidence of Thermite in the debris, and AndreMA has provided an explanation for its presence that doesn't require it to have been used in construction just below.

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:28:19 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Another Mass-- (0+ / 0-)

I'm looking for the link on construction methods of the WTC and will provide it soon as I can. thank you for your question.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:01:35 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Thermite (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, palantir, Massconfusion

Is generally used for welding and cutting in informal and ad hoc circumstances... eg, repairing a piece of farm equipment in situ out in the field.

Oxy-acetylene is more cost effective and was invented well before the WTC towers were built.

That said, the residue if it exists might well be the result of burning aluminum that was consumed in the fires. Aluminum, like in thermite. And also airplanes. There was certain to be a lot of loose iron oxide (the other constituent of thermite) around in an old steel building; the residues are not inconsistent with fire.

by AndreMA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:24:38 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
However, (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, Massconfusion

I am unable to offer any proof that the steel used in the construction wasn't hauled to the site by horse drawn carriage. I suspect it was done by truck, though.

by AndreMA on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:28:31 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Before the towers were completed ... (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC

frinds and I from our arch program snuck onto one of the lifts. None of us had ever been in a truly high speed elevator before and it was a jaw dropping expirence. We were trying to get to the top but were met by security on 70 and were escorted back down after they let us "students look around" - were those different times - we would have been shot today!

I did, however, have occasion to look out of the window that day and could see the Fucking Horses hauling the Steel over from Jersey!

That was a good one Andre! LOL

These guys are STILL NUTS!

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:55:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Were they Clydesdales? (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, Massconfusion

You'd need a strong horse to haul that load...

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:09:26 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Percherons but, They looked pretty small... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

from where I was!

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:14:42 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
o
Dipshit--- (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

Thermite->aluminum dust and iron oxide. Those products can be found as a result of normal building stresses, aging, and as a construction by-product. Finding them is not conclusive proof of demolition. Thermite isn't even usually used for demo, it's too inefficient.

by scrutinizer on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:43:47 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Thermate contains sulfur (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled

You are correct that thermite does not.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:52:09 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
I may not agree w/ theories, but I appreciate (0+ / 0-)

I appreciate you maintaining a civil and respectful demeanor toward those who have been so antagonizing toward you. Civility is also a hallmark of this site, and I wish there were more of it.

As for the CT ban, it's because the purpose of this site is to advance progressive Democrats and issues, and CTs simply take away from that core mission. This is not a norm that has to be reinforced by taunting and derision.

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." - Richard Dawkins

by TX Unmuzzled on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:43:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Please (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

There is nothing civil and respectful about repeating lies over and over again. The CT ban is in place BECAUSE its pure bullshit and because disrespectful assholes like media whores kept repeating their lies.

Sinbad/Crow 2008.

by Mia Dolan on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:31:30 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

#
Renewed investigation is the purpose of Jones' (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
frandor55, rudy23

speech. He does not advocate a particular theory, nor does this diary.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:07:52 AM PDT

*
Be that as it may - kindly take it elsewhere. nt (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, BoiseBlue

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:09:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
I would also need proof (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

That it wasn't used in the planes that flew into the buildings. And that the dust was actually collected where the good doctor says it was.

by BoiseBlue on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:26:40 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Oops, replied to the wrong comment (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

It was meant for the one above.

by BoiseBlue on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:28:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+

#
No problem, Boise (0+ / 0-)

That is an interesting hypothesis. How would the thermite has gotten onto commerical jets?

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:43:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
As has been stated elsewhere on this thread... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

Thermite is nothing more than aluminum dust mised with rust. Airplanes are made of aluminum, and I'm sure there was rust on the girders - no surprises here, and you're being purposely obtuse.

Next open thread, I'll make a suggestion to ban you and the other truthers in this thread - have a nice life...

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:07:46 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
No, sulpher is the ingredient that lowers (0+ / 0-)

the melting temp of steel that allows the cutting to take place.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:17:29 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

+
I will repeat my comment from the (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

last time that you made this stupid statement. First, it is spelled "sulfur". Even using the archaic "ph" it would be "sulphur", not "sulpher". Second, that is not an ingredient in thermite. Third, sulfur in steel is removed during the reduction process because it is very detrimental to the finished product. I hate to be so blunt, but you are just stupid. No good regards of any kind, Doc.

Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

by Translator on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:35:55 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
I will also repeat (0+ / 0-)

I meant the sulfur-enhanced from of thermite, which is Thermate. Sorry.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:38:17 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
*
You're just asking questions, right? (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC, Massconfusion

You're whole diary entry is a piece of shit.

The Journal of 9-11 Studies isn't a peer reviewed journal. It's a circle jerk for like minded conspiracy nuts. Richard Gage is an architect who's crowning achievement is a high school gym.

You're a person who's delusional and can't handle reality. I'm praying to God you're a Ron Paul supporter too.

Go back to your basement and make another You Tube video and then wait for the next Alex Jones show.

by NDBoston on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:17:48 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Thank you for your suggetions nt (0+ / 0-)

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:26:39 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

#
Aliens have invaded (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Massconfusion

my belly button.

by Gator1980 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:09:49 AM PDT

*
Do you need a tin-foil belt? (3+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Massconfusion

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:10:54 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

#
I am an architect (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Catte Nappe, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, MBNYC

and I am not nearly as nuts as some of these guys!

One of the first things taught in any fire protection seminar or in a meterials and methods class is that steel melts! Subjected to a high enough temp. for a long enough period and the stuff is elastic and leads to failure. Heavy timber buildings do not have the same problem, neither does reinforced concrete or masonry. Jet fuel burns very hot and there were thousands of gallons sloshed around the taller towers. The cataclism of the larger towers failing was anough to severly damage surrounding buildings.

Any speakers conference that includes Cynthia McKinney is also immediatly suspect.

You guys are nuttier than Christmas Fruitcakes! It's people like you that give the Left a bad name - especially among the sane - Fuckin' Nuts!

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:16:26 AM PDT

*
A couple of months ago... (7+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Caj, Bouwerie Boy, Triscula, MBNYC, palantir, BoiseBlue, Massconfusion

...a fuel tanker crashed and burned on a highway out west. It was under a bridge at the time, and guess what happened? The girders holding up the bridge weakened, twisted, and collapsed! But I guess the government knew they had to keep the WTC story consistent, so a secret team of Thermite wielding demolitions experts were responsible for that as well...

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:24:02 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Tell Me... (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
people for truth

When that bridge collapsed, did it disintegrate into a pile of concrete dust at freefall speed?

by CTPatriot on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:27:05 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Except that it didn't (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC

http://www.911blimp.net/...

http://www.debunking911.com/...

etc.

by palantir on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:37:42 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Jones addresses this incident in this speech (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
CTPatriot, people for truth

he makes several interesting points--the first of which is the difference between a partial and total collapse, the speed of the collapses, the role of heat, and an examination of the damage that was done to the two different steel members.

FEMA examination of steel girders from WTC revealed high deformation and exposure to temps not possible with open air fires. The WTC steel has portions that had turned to SWiss cheese, which is not possible with normal temps.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:30:00 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
Let's invent a solution and then... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

we'll find a problem big enough to attach it to!

Dr. Jones should be out standing in his field.

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:35:05 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
+
*
Yes, it does melt at high enough temps (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
CTPatriot

But both the FEMA and NIST reports indicate that temperatures were never more than 50% required to melt steel.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:31:25 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Standard truther evasion (0+ / 0-)

The steel didn't have to melt to make the building fall. It just had to be weakened.

Truthers repeatedly point out that the fires weren't hot enough to melt steel---but this fact is utterly irrelevant to anything. It's just designed to trip up the unwary.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:00:19 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

#
As if there were not enough architects in Boston (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

We have to add these guys to the mix.

I generally like my profession and some of my friends were in those towers and others were on one of the planes that hit them.

If an investigation is needed it is why Federal airport security and the Mass State Police were all asleep that day - and why they have HK machine pistols NOW that the threat is all of us in our socks!

Plaese don't hand me this bullshit about the demolition of the towers - or I am going to send Bill Maher to kick your ass!

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:32:17 AM PDT

#
Dr Steven Jones Is Highy Respected Cold Fusion (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, Translator

Professor Jones did some groundbreaking work on nuclear cold fusion in the 1980's and 90's. He is a top flight scientist.

dKos is not the place for this diary. The hostility preculdes any reasonable give and take. The house rules etc., so I do not know what the diarist expects by way of response.

I respect the dKos policy, in that the site would be filled with many absurd Diaries and distract from the sites goal of electing Dems. This Diary is a good one, but posting it here is just asking for abuse.

More and more Americans are discovering the Official Government Conspiracy Theory regarding the towers just doesn't make basic scientific sense.

The dkos policy won't change that fact.

Well I've been from Tucson to Tucumcari... Tehachapi to Tonopah--Lowell George

by frandor55 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:35:15 AM PDT

*
And we're all using our cold fusion machines... (5+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
scrutinizer, mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, Massconfusion

...to power our homes and vehicles today, right?

So Dr. Jones has a history of scientific quackery - good to know.

Defeat John McCain - John McCaingry.com

by AnotherMassachusettsLiberal on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:43:36 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Steven Jones is not a top flight anything. (6+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal, Translator, MBNYC, Massconfusion

He was forced out of his job at ByU for his idiotic theories on 9-11.

Did you know that Jesus Chist visited America? Steven Jones does. Read "Behold My Hands: Evidence for Christ's Visit in Ancient America" by that top flight scientist.

I fear for America with idiots like you believing this garbage.

by NDBoston on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:45:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Thank you, frandor (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled, frandor55

I think that I now agree with you. In the past several months I've been a part of several interesting exchanges about developments in this area, and I honestly thought that a simple report would be another occasion for discussion instead of this.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:46:10 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
*
yeah, and I got a bridge in Brooklyn... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, AnotherMassachusettsLiberal

and if the government does not demolish it with thermite before you get to it I'll let you have it for a really good price!

by Massconfusion on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:00:50 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Wait. I own that bridge n/t (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Massconfusion

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:41:32 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
No he isn't (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Jones is a crackpot who lost his acedemic job because he was a liar and a fraud.

Sinbad/Crow 2008.

by Mia Dolan on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:43:27 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

#
As a Utah native, I find this an amazing story. (0+ / 0-)

BYU fired Jones September 7, 2006 citing
"...A question about the Professor's performance in citizenship, scholarship or teaching." All nonsense. BYU was flooded with calls and letters in support of his character and professional ethics. Once again, the LDS church censures a voice of reason. Go Utes.

http://operation2012.com

http://operation2012.com/

by Rockwood on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:00:48 AM PDT

*
No (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Jones was not a voice of reason - he was a liar and a fraud who gave acedemia a bad name. Free speech advocates should be cheering Jones's termination.

Sinbad/Crow 2008.

by Mia Dolan on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:44:53 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

#
Many people here have minds like steel traps (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
people for truth, GANJA

, rusted shut.
I personally have not looked into any of the 9-11 theorys and have not formed a opinion one or the other. My reasons are many, one, the only time I tried to watch one of the tapes it made me ill thinking my gov. might or could had anything to do with a act like that and had to turn it of after just a few mins.
My second reason being even if it was done it would never, ever be allowed to be made public and validated because of the political havoc it could cause across the world. I was around when both Kennedy and MLK were murdered and we still don't know the truth about either of those incidents.
I respect the rules of dkos about this issue because they keep us a force to be reckoned with instead of being labeled CT nuts, that does not mean I think a single magic bullet was fired in Dallas. It just means I save that discussion for the right time and place.
Over the last couple yrs many things that were once labeled as CTs have be proven to be fact. Tale a close look at what McCain slipped and said yesterday about our Troops and Oil in the Middle East. It pays to keep a open mind. As I was taught by one of my Mentors, " More shall be revealed ".

Molly Ivins reply when asked about Obama, Her answer: "Yes, he should run. He's the only Democrat with any `Elvis' to him."

by SmileySam on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:04:49 AM PDT

*
I agree Smiley (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
TX Unmuzzled

this diary was a mistake this morning. Seems to be almost over.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:18:44 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
I believe that your tenure here is over. (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

by Translator on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:38:11 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
*
Hey (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Mia Dolan

We don't embrace creationism either. Is that closed-minded of us?

Open-mindedness does not mean that we uncritically embrace any old thing, especially a long-debunked idea that is promoted dishonestly by people with an ideological axe to grind.

The truther denial movement, like any other denial movement, has zero evidence, contradicts the evidence we do have, invokes bad physics and logical fallacies, and is just plain silly from a logistical standpoint. Rejecting such an idea is not closed-minded---indeed, open-mindedness is the ability to change your mind on the basis of logic and evidence, rather than clinging to a belief that contradicts it.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:10:04 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Nice (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

I personally have not looked into any of the 9-11 theorys and have not formed a opinion one or the other.

But you are going to accuse people of having minds like steel traps? What an asshole.

This has nothing to do with open minds. These people keep posting lies and repeatedly debunked bullshit theories over and over and over again. That's why the ban was enacted.

Sinbad/Crow 2008.

by Mia Dolan on Sun May 04, 2008 at 10:42:24 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*

#
Anyone who believes the official 9/11 story... (0+ / 0-)

hasn't done any research...There is no way the original account is accurate...Look at the FACTS..Scientific FACTS that is...not facts provided to you by the Bush administration who already has been busted for planting disinformation agents all over the MSM regarding Iraq. Have an open mind, do some outside research and then form an opinion. You people are being really fooled if you think planes brought those towers down...Look into Tower 7 and see how that was brought down...HAVE AN OPEN MIND...This administration has LIED about every major dillema it has faced, what makes people believe that they wouldn't lie about 9/11...Just have an open mind...do a little googling and read some SCIENTIFIC FACTS regarding the 9/11 events and you will be surprised...Everyone runs away from REALITY because they are scared to be called "Conspiracy Theorist", you are hurting America by doing so.

by NoCryingInPoltics on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:05:57 AM PDT

*
You want people to have an open mind (4+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, BoiseBlue

yet you parrot everything I've ever heard from a CT on just about any message board I've ever read.

by Shifty18 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:16:15 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Advancing 9-11 conspiracy theory garbage (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC

at this privately owned weblog is a violation of the owners long stated guidelines. Take it elsewhere.

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

by Bouwerie Boy on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:16:27 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
*
My Guess is (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
snoopydawg, people for truth

that this is a smart crowd. A large portion of the people who participate here are college educated. And that means you took physics in high school. Open a high school physics text and find the equation describing how things fall in a gravitational field : d=1/2 at^^2. Solve for time, plug in the numbers and find out how long it takes for a dense object to fall a thousand something feet when there is no reisiting force.

Compare this number to how long it took for the buildings in question to fall. You will find that the only way for them to fall as quickly as they did is if the structures below where the planes hit offered absolutely no reisistance.
What part of the standard theory explains this?

dKos has to make a choice here on whether it is to be a religious institution or one informed by fact and knowledge. Maybe Jones is a quack. Maybe the whole truther movement is full of quacks. Maybe, in the minds of the religious faithful I make myself incredible by listening to their "evidence" even if I do so critically. But, it seems to me that at leas Jones is trying to deal in facts.

As a person with a master's degree in mechanical engineering, I know enough to know that the standard theory cannot explain any of the three collapses. My own area of expertise is heat transfer, and as I dug through the NIST report apendices dealing with the thermal issues, I was convinced that the heat transfer issues were not dealt with in a compelling manner.

We might quibble over the question of whether there was, in theory, enough fuel and air to cause temperatures to get high enough to soften steel in some places - maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. But for the collapse to initiate as it did requires that 49 columns all heat to a liquid melting temperature simultansously over more than thirty feet of column. I defy any person to design a mechanical device powered by air and diesel that would produce the effect observed. It seemed to me that even the technical people at NIST who wrote the appendices were unconvinced that the standard theory could explain the initiation of collapse Certainly the appendix did not answer the question of heating all columns simultaneously.

The standard theory, in my estimation, fails to explain both the initiation of collapse and its temporal development.

I don't know what happened; but when a theory of a crime requires the laws of physics to be suspended it is the wrong theory. I am interested in finding good explanations for the gap.

In the mean time, can enyone tell me what happened to those five hundred thousand tons of steel during the collapse? How, precisely did they lose their structural strength simlultaneously and end up in a pile of pre-cut steel liying on the ground? When we know the answer to such questions, however improbable it might seem, we will be able to approach a correct theory of the crime.

In a popular government when there is a suspension of the laws, the state is undone - Montesquieu - Spirit of the Laws Book III

by mtspace on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:59:01 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Completely false (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy

Compare this number to how long it took for the buildings in question to fall. You will find that the only way for them to fall as quickly as they did is if the structures below where the planes hit offered absolutely no reisistance.

Since the buildings collapsed slower than free-fall, that means there had to be some resistance. Which there obviously was.

The fall time didn't require zero resistance, just negligable resistance against the falling mass. Bazant showed that the strain force on the building was a good 30-60 times larger than it was engineered to sustain, so there you go.

By the way, a skyscraper is not a "dense object." It is mostly open space, and just barely strong enough to hold itself up, plus an extra safety factor for live and dead loads.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:16:46 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

+
With Abject Apologies to Those who Don't Care... (0+ / 1-)

Hidden by:
Mia Dolan

I must disagree.

Since the buildings collapsed slower than free-fall, that means there had to be some resistance. Which there obviously was.

Not in any meaningful sense. It took longer for the dust to settle, but the actual beams and columns landed in an amount of time virtually indistinguishable from free fall. The NIST report indludes a short clause about there being no meaningful resistance, and Bezant mentions it too.

The fall time didn't require zero resistance, just beanegligable resistance against the falling mass.

You are right that the resistance was not zero. And you are right thst it was negligible. But what you seem to miss is that for this to be true the structural integrity of the steel at that point in time must be not meaningful. But you have been misled by Bazant, perhaps.

Bazant showed that the strain force on the building was a good 30-60 times larger than it was engineered to sustain, so there you go.

No.
Bazant http://www.google.com/... argued that the impact force associated with the whole top section of the building being in freefall and striking the rest of the structure amounted to something like thirty times or sixty times the static load. A force 30 times the design load would probably cause most structures to fail. I'm not sure what the factor of safety was for the WTC; but I am also not sure that its design was primarily determined by considerations of static loads. It may have been limited by issues like severe sind loading or dynamic loading from airplane impacts.

In any case, I am not convinced that enough of the columns could have been heated to cause the building to go into freefall. In fact, I would not be surprised to find out that the building might have stood even with all the core columns cut. I actually think there might be evidence that it could have.

But if some hypothetical bulding were to fail in response to a falling wieght, the failure would take place in a manner that is materially different from what was observed, namely, the intact structure would absorb the energy of the falling part. And this would materially slow the process.

I am unconvinced that he accounts for all the places energy is absorbed in the system as the structure falls. He talks, for instance, about the energy absorbed in elastic deformation but I did not see him calculate and account for that. My own very sketchy calculation suggested that a significant portion of the energy from the fall of the distance of one floor would be absorbed elastically by the structure. That would mean the collapse would be slowed materially. It would not be unreasonable to expect the collapse under such circumstances to take one or two minutee.

The tilting he describes for the South Tower did not occur on the North Tower. So the question of how the columns of the North Tower initially failed is unanswered by this paper. I think a careful observation will show that it was not the whole of the South Tower that tilted and started to fall; just the central core. This is different from the case he analyzes. His analysis presumes buckling starts at an extremitiy but this clearly did not happen if the core fell but the outer shell did not.

He suggests that a tilt angle of just 2.8 degrees would be necessary to "shear" the columns. But had the failure mode he illustrates occurred we would not have seen a difference in motion between the core and the outside shell of the building. They would have moved together. And we would have detected a small lateral movement in the outside of the building amounting to something like the height of one story. Neither of these was the case.

Rather, it appears that the core of the building failed somehow, without any of the parts it was ostensibly holding up falling down with it! It fell in freefall for two seconds before the rest of the building disappeared in a cloud of dust.

Bazant's model describes a materially different kind of failure than the kind observed.

In a popular government when there is a suspension of the laws, the state is undone - Montesquieu - Spirit of the Laws Book III

by mtspace on Sat May 03, 2008 at 06:05:18 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
#
asdf (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, Mia Dolan

But if some hypothetical bulding were to fail in response to a falling wieght, the failure would take place in a manner that is materially different from what was observed, namely, the intact structure would absorb the energy of the falling part. And this would materially slow the process.

It did slow the process. The building fell slightly slower than freefall. That's because the resistance of the building absorbed some of the collapse energy.

If you are trying to argue that it would have been much more slow: how slow, and why? I mean, is this some sort of gut feeling argument, or can you actually derive a slower collapse time for us, so we can check your work?

All this dithering over Bazant's paper is basically legit science versus a bunch of people opining about stuff, never with a shred of anything real to back up their claims.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 07:32:26 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
*
Give me a Shred of Evidence (0+ / 1-)

Hidden by:
Mia Dolan

you are capable of checking my work.

In a popular government when there is a suspension of the laws, the state is undone - Montesquieu - Spirit of the Laws Book III

by mtspace on Sun May 04, 2008 at 08:05:16 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Of course. (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Mia Dolan

But in order for me to demonstrate that I can check your work, you must post it.

Among the truth movement I see an awful lot of qualitative science---people arguing that the building would tip, for example, and instead of backing this up with numbers or quantitative analysis they post some photos and implore me to "think about it."

Ditto with the claim that the collapse would take a whole minute. I ask for any physics to back this up, and people just repeat the claim. Or send me to a truther web site where again, someone simply repeats the claim.

by Caj on Sun May 04, 2008 at 04:24:18 PM PDT

[ Parent ]
o

#
I would like a list of structures built by (6+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Caj, mcfly, Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC, BoiseBlue, NDBoston

architects who believe in the CT theories so I dont like..you know....go anywhere near there.

by Shifty18 on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:14:34 AM PDT

#
Good grief... (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

title=

by Cat Whisperer on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:41:10 AM PDT

#
About that sample, (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
MBNYC

I believe that if I were fleeing for my life from buildings collapsing just behind me the last thing that would occur to me to do would to be to take a representative sample of dirt on the handrail of the bridge over which I was running as fast as I could. This entire scenario is ridiculous. Even if I were to stop and try to take such a sample, I would be trampled by the stampede behind me. Just no credibility. Doc.

Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

by Translator on Sat May 03, 2008 at 08:53:08 AM PDT

*
Not sure your experience is universal (0+ / 0-)

especially since you were not there and Daniel was. You seem to be operating a priori

There are ways to question the young man's story, and his story does need to be questioned.

BTW, I have a cross made from a piece of steel from the WTC rubble that someone thought to take that day.

Thank goodness Keith Olbermann and Glenn Greenwald are not "trained" journalists. You know, trained like circus animals.

by media whores on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:00:20 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
o
Stolen property, eh? nt (0+ / 0-)

Sometimes I feel like Robert Louis Stevenson created me. -6.25, -6.05

by Translator on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:01:50 AM PDT

[ Parent ]

#
Ugh. I'm so sick of the Truthers (2+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Bouwerie Boy, MBNYC

Isn't this stuff disallowed here at Dkos? There are plenty of places on the internets for Truthers to engage in this mutual masturbation and DailyKos isn't one of them.

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." -Ghandi

by Triscula on Sat May 03, 2008 at 09:01:29 AM PDT

#
It's pretty amazing... (1+ / 0-)

Recommended by:
Mia Dolan

...just how fast the diarist went from pretending to be an impartial observer reporting a story, to going all nuts with the CT links and "fire doesn't melt steel" crap.

I usually see the same tactic from creationists: they pretend to be impartial third parties, but it is pretty obvious they're pushing an agenda, and with the gentlest of nudges they suddenly give themselves away.

I guess the moral is this: if you are dumb enough and ideological enough to hold insane beliefs in the face of all evidence and common sense, you probably don't have the brains to maintain even the flimsiest of deceptions.

by Caj on Sat May 03, 2008 at 02:24:00 PM PDT