G.U.I.L.T.
Several years ago, the terms "LIHOP" and "MIHOP" were coined to describe two camps of the 9/11 truth movement.
"LIHOP", for those who don't know, stands for the theory that elements of the U.S. government Let It Happen On Purpose. "It", of course, is 9/11. People who believe in LIHOP stress that the intelligence services had been tracking the alleged hijackers and had ample warning of the attacks in advance, standard air defense procedures would have stopped any hijacked jets from crashing into both the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, the anomolies in the funding of the attacks, the people involved, the interference with investigations and prosecutions which could have stopped the attacks, and the cover-up by the government all point to the conclusion that elements of the U.S. government intentionally allowed the attacks to happen on purpose in order to promote the imperial agenda laid out previously by the Project for a New American Century and elsewhere.
"MIHOP", on the other hand, stands for the theory that the U.S. government Made It Happen On Purpose. People who believe in MIHOP stress physical evidence which tends to contradict the official theory about 9/11, such as the strange "collapses" of the Twin Towers and WTC7, and may stress anomolies in the attack on the Pentagon, the way that Flight 93 crashed (or was shot down?), and perhaps even the impact of the airplanes on the Twin Towers. MIHOPs believe that the physical evidence is the "smoking gun" which is so irrefutable that it will convict the perpetrators. MIHOPs believe that if we ignore the smoking guns, we will pass up our best chance to prove that 9/11 was an inside job, since "letting it happen on purpose" is hard to distinguish from mere negligence and mistake.
It has become clear that, whatever their original usefulness, the labels lihop and mihop now create more confusion and division within the truth movement than clarity. Why? Because mihop advocates think that lihops are "limited hang out" gatekeepers who are intentionally supressing the most damning evidence of complicity in the attacks, as a way to stall the 9/11 truth moementum. And many lihop advocates think that the mihop proponents are stressing crazy or at least non-provable physical evidence theories which distract and waste energy, cloud the waters, and divert attention away from the most solid evidence of government complicity which will be believed by the most people.
Moreover, the lihop/mihop labels divert attention and energy from doing the hard work to persuade people to bring the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice. Instead, countless hours and countless words are spent in the arcane fight between the lihop and mihop camps. Indeed, instead of presenting a unified front, we often look like a bunch of raving lunatics due to all of the insults ("idiot", "disinfo agent", etc.) that the two camps hurl at each other.
Do you think this is a trivial issue, and that I am making a mountain of a molehill? Maybe. But labels and the "framing" of an issue have been proven to be extremely important in determining whether a political effort is successful or not (just ask linguist George Lakoff or any political consultant). Using the wrong labels can destroy a movement before it gets off the ground, and the lihop/mihop labels are doing just that: dividing the 9/11 truth movement to the point where it can't "get off the ground" and get a new investigation, criminal prosecutions or any other real action or justice in relation to 9/11.
So what's the answer?
GUILT.
We have to focus on the fact that the people who carried out 9/11 should be given a judgment of GUILT by a criminal court or war crimes tribunal. That is the end goal.
To help us focus on that goal, let's use the label GUILT.
Thinking out loud, the GUILT acronym can stand for:
Government Unfriendlies Intentionally Launched Terror
Here's what I mean . . .
"Government" stands for people within the U.S. government. Sure, the U.S. might have subcontracted parts of the attack out to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and/or the Israeli Mossad. But, at the very least, elements of the AMERICAN government were involved. This was state-sponsored terrorism, not a lone wolf operation.
"Unfriendlies" is a term sometimes used in the military for people hostile to the U.S. or U.S. soldiers. The people who carried out 9/11, even those that were employees of the United States government, are hostile to the U.S. constitutional form of government and government of, by and for the people. They have a very different agenda from the rest of us and from the founding fathers, so they are unfriendlies.
9/11 was "Intentionally" made or allowed to succeed. Indeed, there were multiple, parallel fail-safe mechanisms that the perpetrators used to ensure that the attacks succeeded: setting up patsies, protecting the patsies by preventing pre-attack investigations and prosecutions, failing to notify the public of warnings, routing money through Pakistan's ISI and elsewhere, training patsies at military bases, conducting multiple war games including plane-into-building exercises and false radar injects, standing down the military, potentially using controlled demolition of the world trade center, etc.
The perpetrators "Launched" the attack. They took active steps, some of which are dicussed above, to make sure the attacks succeeded. Even under the old lihop theory, active steps had to have been taken -- normal national security procedures had to have been actively interfered with in a manner which involved treasonous action rather than mere passive non-action. As Colonel Bob Bowman says "If our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the twin towers would still be standing, and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive." And as the person who created the lihop and mihop labels said, if you really look at lihop, you HAVE to become mihop. So the lihop label is meaningless. The fact that the attacks were intentionally launched is the important thing.
The goal of "Terror" is to make people afraid. The perpetrators of 9/11 intentionally killed U.S. (and foreign) citizens in a terrifying way, such as making or letting the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center collapse in a horrifying manner. 9/11 is a textbook example of false flag terror. It is also the most spectacular terrorist attack in history.
So let's put aside labels that distract us. Let's stop counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Let's stop arguing over pet theories of what did and didn't happen on 9/11.
Let's focus on the GUILT of the perpetrators of 9/11. And let's bring the guilty to justice.
My formulation of the words making up G.U.I.L.T. might not be the best. And maybe we shouldn't be using symplistic acronyms at all. But if we we're going to use any simplistic labels, let's at least focus on guilt and justice as the most important concepts.
My intention is to staunch the huge loss of energy being focused into the lihop versus mihop debate, the huge in-fighting and secterianism those labels have caused, and the drain on the ability of 9/11 truthers to focus our eyes on the prize: bringing the perpetrators of 9/11 to justice, and educating people about the secret history of false flag attacks so that they won't happen again.
Anything else is mental . . . you know what.
- GeorgeWashington's blog
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at least
at the very least they clearly lied and covered up key aspects of this event and the days and weeks leading up to this event .....that they should NOT have had to cover-up or lie about unless there was something that they were trying to hide ......and it goes well beyond incompetence and "coincidence".
the evidence of this is clear cut enough for every American to question the Government explaination and then investigate further to discover the need for answers that can only be made evident by a new an independent investigation.
At the very least
do these people ever act like there is nothing to hide?
JJ
Independant investigation is all we ask.Reflecting back to JFK,and the obvious cover up by the Warren commission.It took thirteen years to open up another investigation.
So what happened?All facts pointed to CIA....CASE CLOSED.Classifed national security reasons till 2029.
Does anyone besides me think this is BULLSHIT? Does this look like honesty in our goverment? I only hope that 9/11 does'nt suffer the same fate.
"Do these people ever act like there is nothing to hide?"
Do all of us Americans believe this fact to be ok?
I would love to ask all Americans what they would reply to this saying.
As me no questions,and i'll tell you no lies.
The divisive nature of labels
The terms "LIHOP" and "MIHOP" was coined by one of the most divisive activists in this movement. It should come as no surprise that these labels have, at time, been used to divide us.
I have regularly been called John "limited hangout" Albanese - as if I should be suspect for furthering research that some troll views as a limited hangout theme.
Besides the fact that this is simply blatently false, as my film clearly has very strong MIHOP research in it, you can see that these terms are used to divide us.
Almost as soon as these terms were coined by this divisive researcher our small group in NYC began to descend into cross accusations - with this one divisive activist behaving like the grand inquisitor testing our loyalty to the MIHOP meme.
Its all a disruption technique folks.
And, it also does not matter. There are no moral distinctions between LIHOP and MIHOP. Both are treason. Both are profound betrayals of the public's trust. Both amount to mass murder.
John, whatever you think of
the person who created the old labels, they are widely used, and there impact can only be lessened if we come up with a new term.
Right?
Sure
but i'm more in favor of a new approach - as opposed to a new label.
i think the time for theorizing is over and we should be putting 100% of our energies into organizing actions.
but if i did need a label it would be TFL - They're F'ing Liars - because that's all anyone needs to know.
Maybe both of you are right?
I think we need a new label, but a new approach also.
And to GW, a good advise to get over the old divisions, whoever installed them, even as I can understand Johns anger about this guy.
TFL is a little bit off the table, isn't it? I prefer the term synthetic terror, as everybody understand it with short time thinking. Maybe there are even better, faster understandable terms. Even false flag terror is not so easy understanding...
MIHOP does not exclude LIHOP.
As Webster Tarpley has explained: MIHOP does not exclude LIHOP.
For example, there is such a thing as being criminally negligent. If you knowingly have the key to a door, and you know a murderer wants to get in that door and murder, and you unlock the door knowing it will happen—you are just as responsible as the murderer.
NORAD was the locked door. The stand-down order was the key. The planes were the murderers.
Although technically this is LIHOP--how can anyone not argue this is essentially the same as MIHOP. What matters is that 3000 people died and there no sane reason why this happened—inside job or otherwise.
I think "Inside Job" is much better than MIHOP. My first reaction to these acronyms was mild amusement. They are kind of a turn off, and sound a little odd. 9/11 Truth is a great name for what we are doing (and an Orwellian call to arms), and I think we should stick with that.
“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
I don't think we need a replacement
in order to stop promoting those ridiculous sounding, useless terms. A video of some enthusiastic truther trying to explain (much less pronounce) those redundant and oxymoronic wedge words to a complete newcomer should be all you need to convince people to drop that nonsense.
Thanks for addressing the topic GW.
All these acronyms sound, as Judy Wood would say
"retarded"
That person, as far as I
That person, as far as I know, is none other than Nico Haupt, the same Nico Haupt who has introduced and promoted divisive point after divisive point in the movement. Except this one is an actual division categorization.
So, is THIS the answer to my
So, is THIS the answer to my question below? Confirmation ONLY from registered users, please.
Yes.
Short answer.
Yes.
Short answer.
Thank you.
Thank you.
"The terms "LIHOP" and
"The terms "LIHOP" and "MIHOP" was coined by one of the most divisive activists in this movement."
Guess I've been out of touch. Some help here: of whom are we speaking?
Does not matter
we should get over it and fight for truth, instead of each other...
Great, I'm over it. I was
Great, I'm over it. I was never THAT big a deal to me. Now, do you know the answer to my question? Know where I can find it?
DO NOT tell me what I need to know, sunshine. I'll be the judge of that, thank you.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
I agree. This is a divisive thread.
This is a divisive thread. So, why was it approved for posting?
Naming specific camps is a well-known technique to divide and destroy the opposition. So, why is GeorgeWashington doing this? What could be his motive other than to turn folks against each other in an attempt to destroy the "truth movement"?
Golly, posting this thread is quite revealing about what is at the top of GeorgeWashington's agenda. GeorgeWashington chooses to divide and destroy the truth movement instead of going after the perpetrators of this mass murder on our citizens and our constitution.
Shame on you!
I disagree.
I disagree. I assume you are being sarcastic.
I don't think this post is divisive at all. If the truth is divisive does that mean we shouldn't pursue it? To the department of "create our own reality" the answer is yes.
“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
how about no labels?
If you don't like the labels, just drop them. There's no need to create a new label, must less one that sounds Islamophilic.
PS. Dr. Boyle is not a "prominent 9/11 truth activist."
Activist
Not yet....... to be continued
"Much less one that sounds Islamophilic"?
What? Are you serious?
This post does indirectly point toward one reason that the LIHOP/MIHOP distinction is more than just disruptive labeling. Put the events of 9/11 in the context of a propaganda campaign that is demonizing Muslims by inventing the notion of "Islamofascism" and then decide whether you want to tacitly affirm that there is a powerful Muslim group that not only wants to do it, but more importantly, is able to pull off a terrorist event of that magnitude.
I make a point of mentally translating any statements about Muslims that are potentially propagandistic, by substituting the word "Jew" or "Jewish" and noting how reasonable they sound. For example, on NPR yesterday, a commentator reported that EU officials have said that Muslims must do more to assimilate into society, in order to prevent acts of violence against them. How does "Jews must do more to assimilate into society in order to prevent acts of violence against them" sound?
How does "much less one that sounds Jew-loving" sound?
And more mysterious
And more mysterious -1's--that I've just removed. Yes, I did vote, cass...
Bert, Ernie and Grover,
Your trolling days will soon be over!
"Bugger this; I want a better world."
Get them into court
I agree with your sentiment, GW, but I think another label at this point is immaterial, especially one that looks like "Allah".
Get them into court. That should be the priority. Demonstrations are useful, and I applaud everyone who participates, but I think there is a window of two years in which we need to get into court someone connected to some part of this thing. Once Bush/Cheney are gone, the impetus for action will dissipate.
I can not disagree with you
I can not disagree with you more on this issue of a time window. Things will continue to slide downhill in this country. Why? Because most Democrats still have their heads up their asses. Democrats need to put themselves in the Republicans shoes to understand why things will continue to get worse. Many Republicans have had their rude awakening regarding the corruption in their party. Guess what? Most Democrats have not had this kind of awakening yet with regards to their leaders. They continue to select the same Royalty(why kid ourselves people? The two party system is American Royalty) every election. Well maybe the tyranny of one of our Royal families will be over in two years. But then it's time for the other Royal family to take charge. And considering they haven't done a damn thing to protect our constitution, things will continue to slide. My guess is that things will finally come to a head(unless we hit Depression 2.0 first) when the Democrat citizens get their rude awakening. The impetus for change will escalate. Do yourself a favor if you're a Democrat, don't respond at all until you stop to think of the emotions and betrayal Republican backers have experienced. Waking up to the fact that our Royalty regards us as throw-away peons is not going to be easy but the sooner the better.
"... In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." (Galileo Galilei, 1564 - 1642)
OIL IS OBSOLETE - WAKE UP - YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO, AGAIN!
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/
I changed it to G.U.I.L.T.
Take a look.
At least it doesn't sound
so damn Islamophilic.
I think the LIHOP/MIHOP divide has outlived its usefulness, not only as labels, but as a conceptual framework.
...
I think that for people whose interest was initially sparked by the "physical impossibility" angle, LIHOP is essentially meaningless. Allowed WHAT to happen? Strictly speaking, to say that 19 guys with boxcutters, yadda yadda, and thus effected the destruction of the WTC as per the official explanation cannot be a LIHOP scenario, because it is outside the realm of what could be "allowed to happen" as described. I have no problem with entertaining the possibility that there were 19 guys, that they did hijack planes, that they did crash them, and even that they did not know the plot went beyond them -- and EVEN that people in the government may have thought they were simply "allowing" something to happen. But I would worry about someone who can't see that such a scenario cannot possibly explain all events.
Well, may I add that everything we know about caveman Osama
& his 19 flunkies indicates that there is NO WAY IN HELL they could've accomplished such a devastating attack on U.S. soil--as bringing down three WTC skyscrapers & later flying something into the Pentagon!!!
BTW, those 19 srew-ups didn't fly anything into their intended targets, IMO. They couldn't even fly Cessnas properly, for Christ's sake! You're telling me they ripped control of those jets by murdering the pilots, flew them hundreds of miles, eyeballed & slammed into those targets??? Come on now!
Yes
And as long as the myth that hijacked planes annihilated the WTC is allowed to stand, a lot of the foreknowledge and foreign intrigue stuff, even if it can be proven in court, can spun towards incompetence.That is why the physical evidence of what happened is paramount. "Who did it" requires we know what IT is -.
from "what" flows "who."
exactly
i never quite understood why L- / MIHOP are such prominent terms. It just never really made sense to me, coming from the "physical impossibility" angle. These days, im pretty allergic against people fighting over them. Very annoying.
I agree. This is a divisive thread.
This is a divisive thread. So, why was it approved for posting?
Naming specific camps is a well-known technique to divide and destroy the opposition. So, why is GeorgeWashington doing this? What could be his motive other than to destroy the "truth movement"?
Interesting Topic
The original post and most of the replies so far have many good insights. I personally have never seen much real distinction between LIHOP and MIHOP. Cassia had it right and expressed my idea exactly…
Let It Happen On Purpose
The IT is not something that can be LET to happen.
Because it breaks the laws of physics and the laws of engineering and other law of nature which are unbreakable.
And when you say IT,
Do you refer to the “official version” as the IT?
Or
Are you referring to the observed and measured IT that we all have analyzed and studied.
I do not like those terms very much. Let’s get the perps in the hot seat now with multiple huge lawsuits.
We know enough now to press several different legal charges.
That is the only action I can think of that meets my definition of action now, short of revolution.
You know we are dealing with the forces of deep evil in this world. The age-old plan is to manipulate world events into a one world death and slavery system.
England was once the strongest military and financial and political power in the world. They went around stirring up one war after another until they drove their own great empire into the ground and they handed the mantel of world leadership over the USA, and now the same evil forces and people who drove Great Britain into the ground are doing the same to the USA. We are about to call up thousands of more troops into the absolute disaster of Iraq and Bush and his handlers are pushing and lying us toward another insane and immoral war on Iran. The plan for the US is to drive us into the ground and we are going to turn the mantel of world leadership over to the United Nations one world death and slavery system. That will just about wind up all the Machiavellian and Hegelian wars and false flag terrorism and all the other garbage these diabolical people have been aiming for.
I just had to insert that last paragraph because we must realize that the rulers of the USA do not want to “save America” and they do not want to restore the rule of law or Constitutional government. They want to destroy this nation and move toward the one world death and slavery system. So we really do not even have much hope even if we could get some big lawsuits going right now against the government and perpetrators.
I guess it was Webster Tarpley who gave us the terminology. I saw a video on google where he explains it like a teacher with a classroom situation. I still do not buy into Tarpley’s reasoning one hundred percent. He is a left winger. He said recently that he adheres to the philosophy of Machiavelli (just like the neocons).
I love America for our founding principles and what we should always be fighting and striving for – freedom for all under God. I am not responsible for the evil thugs in power doing evil things in the name of the USA.
One thing I notice about Chomsky and Boyle and Howard Zinn. You will never hear them say a thing for shoring up USA SOVEREIGNTY. They completely gloss over that. Their solutions always seem to point to the United Nations or a World Court to rule over the whole world. Even if some of these “intellectual” left wingers say they do not believe the official story of 9-11, they still want a one world government, just as David Ray Griffin has written that he wants. (Griffin calls himself a Christian but if you read some his Christian-related 9-11 writing, his version of basic Christian doctrines are not anything I find in the bible or in my Christian teaching. He is a very liberal Christian and almost all of them want a one world death and slavery system. )
We the individual people have zero chance of influencing anyone when there is one world government. Yes national government should be watched and kept small and bound down with the chains of the Constitution and our non-virtuous politicians need to kept under our strong magnifying light of exposure. But at least in a sovereign nation there is some chance that the ordinary people can influence the crooks and expose their every action and keep them with almost powerless and penniless.
I have one
S.A.P.P.E.R. Saw A Plot Protected Every Roadblock
The Way I See It
It hasnt been so much a LIHOP vs MIHOP divide in the movement, but a "lets focus all on physical anomalies"(people who focus all their energy exclusively on the towers, pentagon, flight 93, etc) versus a "lets focus on criminal wrongdoing and the trail of obstruction and everything else"(people who primarily focus on
the Pakistani/Saudi involvement, trail of the hijackers, FBI obstruction, money trail, NORAD/war games, connections, etc)
there's some "coverup of gross negligence" types(tho I definately wouldnt count those as part of the movement) who usually just make fun of us. The people who take a more cautious approach, saying there are many unanswered questions(Ray Mcgovern) I can totally dig.
But once people start saying there was no trace of LIHOP/MIHOP, that the coverup is regarding "criminal negligence" thats unintentional, they are definately not part of the activism.
The FACT the US is covering the butt of the obvious guilty Pakistan is a form of criminal complicity right there.
"Guilt the Americans: We Deserved It"
This is the dumbest idea I've read so far. The entire point of the 'Truth Movement' has been to 'Guilt' the Americans into thinking they deserve the coming retribution...
The Amero.
The Crash.
The Police State...
LIHOP = MIHOP
Because LETTING it happen, MAKES sure it happens!
/////////////////////
911dvds@gmail.com - $1 DVDs shipped - email for info
Off Topic: Yahoo Forums NO MORE
Yahoo has put an end to their discussion Forums where you could respond to news stories. Over the years I must have posted hundreds of comments and links regarding the Truth. When I began there may have been one in a hundred pro Truth in response to a 911 story. Recently (the last year) the boards were flooded with our comments and recommendations. They had been jackin with the post for some time. I believe the closure was due to too much Truth escaping.
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As they were set up, the Yahoo! News message boards allowed a small number of vocal users to dominate the discussion. In addition, related discussions from similar news articles were not easily linked.
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We must be the change we wish to see in the world. M Gandhi
G.u.i.l.t.
I think it's brilliant! United we stand, divided we fail.
If you want my opinion read below- if not then don't
All of you have spent time discussing something which has nothing to do with the main purpose of getting Justice for the 3000 + victims. The victim count continues to grow because every member of every family of every person who was unfortunate enough to be included in the mass murder at the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001, every person who was one of the first responders that gets ill is a victim as well as every member of his family becomes victims also. Every soldier that has even been assigned in Iraq and their families are victims. The hundreds of thousands Iraqis that have either died, been injured, displaced and their families are victims. Every other country that has been subject to the pressure put on them by either of the Bush Administrations are victims
The entire world is a victim. The pollution, hate and destruction that we have inflicted upon mother nature may never be reversible.
We all are victims too because I am sure we had plenty of other interests to fill out time prior to 9/11. I don't necessarily like to spend my time reading and replying to blogs nor spend my time reading how some slick Senator was able to quietly slip an amendment into a bill without reading it out loud so that all the Senators could here it on September 10, 2001 107th Congressional Record. I'll stop here for now.
I didn't start to get involved until the end of 2005 and/or early 2006 and I am getting very frustrated trying to find information about INSURANCE CLAIMS THAT WERE FILED (please find me one Hull claim filed by either United Airlines or American Airlines), ACCEPTED & APPARENTLY APPROVED & PAID (without insurance companies doing any investigations that I have been able to find), LITIGATED (in the Southern District of the US Supreme Court) WITHOUT ANY ATTORNEY QUESTIONING THE VALIDITY OF THE CLAIM DUE TO LACK OF INVESTIGATION (despite the hijackers took control of 4 passenger airlines jets, crashed them into things, buildings collapsed from the infernos that started from the jet fuel reasons that appear in the Court Documents). Maybe the Insurance companies need to hire different attorneys who aren't willing to make behind closed doors deals that are not in the best interest of their clients. There are 20 or so insurance companies. Make that 19 or so. One of them had Marvin Bush on the Board of Directors.
The attorneys that were hired by the insurance companies have an obligation to preform their best legal services for their clients best interest. Their clients ARE the stockholders of the insurance companies NOT the officer who hired them. I direct your attention to this link http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/5/prwebxml235341.php#. It is a small shareholder proposal to have the Board of Directors of a German insurance company to Investigate 9/11.
Mr. Silverstein and his associates are getting away with billions of dollars of received from insurance claims that were at best questionable in nature.
The new insurance product called Terrorist Risk Insurance resulted from the Government and which has increased the rates for insurance dramatically as well as the profits of the insurance companies. BUT THE INCREASED PROFITS should not be used as an excuse for the insurance companies to pay out billions of dollars of apparently fraudulent claims from the stockholders money. The officers who signed off on the approvals should also be charged with Insurance Fraud. They authorized payments that were against Corporate policies that require investigations.
Why hasn't anyone reported Mr. Silverstein the the New York State Department of Insurance for Insurance Fraud. Here is a link http://www.ins.state.ny.us/fdidxa_i.htm. The telephone number to report Insurance Fraud in New York is 1-888-FRAUDNY.
I had to stop there. I was beginning to sound to myself like a Dennis Miller Rant. It is all so pathetic. Now back to the topic of what ? Oh yes, what are we going to call ourselves ??
GW was it the LIHOPs or the MIHOPs that had the NO PLANES or PLANES theories. I never paid any attention to that type of mindless waste. We are what we are no matter what you are called by someone else we still are what we are and will have too account to our higher power for our actions after we die.
Sorry this comment is so long. It just irks me that nobody has the guts to tell the emperor he has no clothes on.
Thank you
I have been wondering about this. For a while, it made me question 9/11 demolition theories, because it seemed that this would have to come out in insurance litigation.
Is it possible that the insurance companies would have to pay out even if the U.S. government committed the terrorist act, absent a finding that Silverstein was involved in fraud? Was it easier to just pay out rather than fight both Silverstein's lawyers and the Justice Department? It's obviously wrong, and the insurance companies are complicit, but at som,e level even they may have had n choice. More likely they profit from new terrorist risk policies, may have gotten regulatory relief and other benefits, and have investments in weapons contractors. They may even be able to justify it in financial terms to their shareholders, though of course they could never say that. This is a terrible shame, as this insurance litigation could have been the best place to get at the truth.
You mention the lack of hull insurance claims by United Airlines and American Airlines -- Morgan Reynolds asserts that is evidence of no Boeings having hit the towers and Pentagon. You seem to have another explanation -- what is it?
Is any useful information available in the court files? This is expensive, I know.
Thank you.
Ningen
Thanks for your comment. I am still looking into getting an insurance company to fund a new investigation. Hell, just the difference in the one occurrence amount awarded + two occurrence additional amount litigation would be a nice start. The lawyers for the insurance companies really blew that one. I think that would have been the ideal spot to try and turn the question into one plot or two plots.
I don't think that it is important about who did the attacks. A fire damage claim is a lot less than the damages caused by the Controlled Demolition.
When Mr. Silverstein admitted with his "pull-it" statement that was an admission that he was aware that WTC 7 had been rigged for Controlled Demolition. If he knew that WTC 7 had been rigged he must have been aware that the towers were rigged also. The arrangements must have gone through his management company and/or the Security Company that he had hired, which I believe had the President's younger brother involved.
The insurance companies were still required by law and corporate internal controls to investigate which they did not do. Although it appears that the corporate managements have been able to sidestep the paying claims for no reason question very well. Only the one stockholder of the German insurance company seems to ask for one.
I do know that if I knew that my house was rigged for controlled demolition and it went without my at least making an attempt to stop it I wouldn't be paid.
I wonder why Mr. Silverstein didn't say anything when he found out that there were explosives being planted in his buildings. lol
You stated "Morgan Reynolds asserts that is evidence of no Boeings having hit the towers and Pentagon" with respect to the lack of hull insurance claims being filed. I do not know where you got the Morgan Reynolds information. If you read this please leave a link.
Of the four tail numbers of the Flights that are claimed to crash two have been reported as "destroyed" in the FAA registration a couple of years after 9/11 and two show multiple registrations - some of which are still current.
There is a report that the United 93 tail number had been sighted still making flights after 9//11. There is other information floating around regarding the non-existence of Flights 77 & 11. Apparently they were not on the original flight schedule for 9/11/2001. I believe those records have been changed to something else.
There also are reports that indicate that some of the Passenger lists were faked. Different numbers of passengers, names no hijackers names etc.
I have seen one of the FAA registration for a tail number that was not registered to neither American Airlines nor United Airlines. I didn't go into that any further at that time.
I have been able to locate some of the Court documents online. One of them contains a copy of the actual Travelers Insurance Policy dated 9/14/2001 and a listing of the amounts incurred as losses for each of the over 20 insurance companies involved for the first $3.5 billion awarded for one occurrence.
Thanks again for your interest.
Amen brother! People aren't
Amen brother! People aren't focusing enough on in your face evidence like the trillions of pentagon money reported missing the day before the attacks on the accounting wing of the Pentagon. I think the biggest problem is having people elect representatives that are going to push for real hearings on these blatant issues. If the American public isn't upset enough to raise hell over trillion's missing then I'm guessing the rest of us will have to wait until things get many fold worse to elict appropriate action from the populace.
"... In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." (Galileo Galilei, 1564 - 1642)
OIL IS OBSOLETE - WAKE UP - YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO, AGAIN!
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/
Excellent Idea
"Why hasn't anyone reported Mr. Silverstein the the New York State Department of Insurance for Insurance Fraud. Here is a link http://www.ins.state.ny.us/fdidxa_i.htm. The telephone number to report Insurance Fraud in New York is 1-888-FRAUDNY."
T.A.R
They Are Responsible
there are 5 "camps"
Some of the "911 was an inside job" camps like to lay out 4 scenarios. Briefly they go as follows.
1 Is the official story.
We got caught with our pants down and terrorists did 911. And the wars in the Middle East are part of the greater war on terrorism.
2 The incompetence excuse
There was information available about the coming attacks but because of our incompetence we failed to see it. Terrorists attacked the US. And the wars in the Middle East were based on mistakes (more incompetence) but now we got to stay.
3 They let it happen
They knew full well about the coming 911 attacks but allowed it to happen in order to use it as a pretext to go to war with Iraq and Afghanistan as it was in military and corporate interests (particularly oil) to do so.
4 They made it happen. (They meaning just vaguely the Bush Admin)
The Bush government either helped protect the terrorists or simply used them as patsies, and assisted the plane crashes effects with bombs placed inside the towers prior to 911. The wars in the Middle East were about oil.
The 911 was an inside job camps then say the evidence must land you somewhere between 3 and 4 with more research dropping you firmly on 4.
Let me now throw in a 5th scenario
5 The Neocons Made it happen with the assistance of a foreign government, the same government where PNAC was first written, and who we have caught spies from who have been stealing secrets from us about Iran, and who made up the shadow government of the OSP which is who cherry picked and fabricated the lies told about Iraq in order to start the war. The Wars in the middle east were for separate reasons, Afghanistan was about a few pipelines as noted but more so about controlling large quantities of un-tapped uranium (a reason for both the Russian and US invasions) and secondly for controlling opium as the CIA uses drug money to fund it's off the book black operations such as the now known massive secret prison systems, (torture camps and human medical/scientific testing). Location-wise Afghanistan is coupled with other color coded revolutions to circle China and Russia with US bases and puppets, (add to that the lesser known negotiations with Japan to allow nuclear subs into the Japanese Sea [pointed at China] in exchange for moving troops from Okinawa to Guam). The main goal however, which the PNAC think tank states, is to keep the eye on the pie: Iran, which Afghanistan and Iraq both boarder. The invasion of Iraq was to solve Israel's oil crisis and stop the threat of a secular Middle East which would become a true economic player and was a threat to the aggressive state of Israel.
5th Scenario
Sounds to have some good basis in fact. However, the 5th Scenario is an exclusive choice of rationale that puts all the blame on "Zionists" and "Jews."
Yes, the "Zionist" faction plays a big role in USA actions in the middle east, but it really has not much to do with "Zionism", a term which only means establishing separate country of Israel.
Those neocons and PNAC folks with the Jewish names do not care one whit about establishing a homeland for the Jewish people of the world. Those folk, who by the way do not make up the totality of PNAC or neocons or people who are described as "Zionists." Gary Bauer, who ran as pro-life Christian presidential candidate and heads some big "Chrstian" group in D.C, is not a Jew, is not a neocon, is an original member of PNAC and wants a one world death and slavery government and he hides behid the "Christian" label to promote one worldism.
Those "Zionists" with the Jewish names belong to what Carroll Quiqley calls the anglo-American establishment. They are a group of world billionaire elites who became part of various secret societies that grew out of Cecil John Rhodes original group that really did not have a name other than "the Group."
The plan for Israel is to destroy its borders, just as there is the same exact plan for the USA. Israel is to become part of a large middle eastern world region, that at first will simply be called a "trading bloc", just like the formation of the North American Union is first slipped in under the guise of NAFTA and CAFTA.
Barry Chamish, a non-religious Jew and recent Israeli ex-patriot who now lives in British Columbia, wrote a book in 1997 explaining how he learned of the real plan to destroy Israel and blend it in to a world region. Also secret deals were made by Israeli leadership with the Pope to turn over Jerusalem to some kind of world city where Roman Catholicism will play some kind of big role. Not only are the Palestinians going to be wiped out, but the Jews in Israel are going to be scuttled just like the ordinary people of the USA, mainly the middle class, are being wiped out economically right now.
You can point to "Zionism" and "the Jews" all you want, but it is really the Brotherhood of Darkness world rulers in the secret societies who are calling the shots in all countries of the world right now. They all want a one world feudalist death and slavery system.
The ADL in the USA has a main purpose of inciting anti-Semitism. (By the way, Semitic people INCLUDED the Arabic peoples - look it up) That is their real goal. It is part of the Brotherhood of Darkness's many dialectical scams to get people fighting with each other so they can bring in their "solution" - feudalistic world government.
The world rulers have always created and funded all factions. They funded the creation of Communism and Trotsky. They funded Hitler before, during, and after World War II, including NAZI elites up to this day (the Bush crime family). They funded the Soviet Union during the Viet Nam war so that the trucks and ammo were built in Russia by Ford Motors Comma River plant and sent to aid the North Viet Namese to kill our USA soldiers. The USA elites, many of whom have Jewish names, but by no means all of them, have praised Mao and Castro and Mugabe and every despotic murdering filth leader in the world.
The so called "Zionists" with Jewish names in the U.S. political scene are one worlder Luciferian filth. They do not adhere to any form of Jewish religion, and their plans for the middle east do not include a sovereign nation state of Israel.
Blessings from Dachsie in Austin.
Don't forget the Pakistan continuing ..
.. support for the terrorists and President Bush wanting to give the Pakistan government nuclear knowledge.
Even so-called LIHOP, if
Even so-called LIHOP, if provable (which it is) = Conspiracy to commit murder X 3000
Given all the information now available, a new and truly independant investigation, with subpoena and indictment powers is called for, and the new Congress HAS THAT POWER. So let us hold THEM to account for the abomination in our midst, to hold any Government officials who knowlingly and actively participated in the 9/11 atrocity, to account for their actions or non-actions. Moussoui, that mentally ill character, was given life in prison for withholding information, as the result of his show trial. Why would Dick Cheney deserve any less? Because he has "connections" or hold a position of high office?
We need to get in the face of the new Congress and demand a truly independant, incorruptible, inevestigation, and, if the facts warrent it, a criminal trial, with indictments issued to the perpetrators, no matter who they are or where the trail may lead. Perhaps 100's need to be indicted for charges of conspiracy to commit murder. And if the whole house of cards come tumbling down, then it's time for a brand new government, according to the wise council of the Declaration of Independance.
Robert Rice, your post
Robert Rice, your post sounds quite good and reasonable to me. But 9-11 has never been treated as a criminal investigation from the beginning. Spitzer in New York totally went along with the evildoers. It was his place to launch a criminal investigation from the very beginning. He should have made sure that the physical evidence at Ground Zero was not removed, but as I have posted elsewhere, he and Christi Todd Whitman, participated in that scam to quickly remove and destroy the crime scence evidence.
We cannot hold those crooks in Congress accountable for anything. They have gradually removed our right to vote. Because of our fake money system and unConstitutional overly large federal government with too much power, we have congress candidates who are already selected and purchased before we ever get our fake chance at voting and choosing a representative.
The entire federal apparatus, including Congress, presidential administration, federal bureaucracy, Supreme Court and the whole filthy ball of wax is nothing other than a bribery - extortion - and blackmail grid, whereby all are held inside the criminal racketeering operation.
I think we do indeed to press for a real independent investigation of 9-11, but have little hopes of that happening exclusive as a USA entitiy. I think we do need to press for 9-11 to be handled as a standard criminal investigation, starting at the New York state level as it should. (Our criminal FBI and the CIA need to butt out.)
But we in the 9-11 truth movement need to use 9-11 to expose our whole corrupt taken over government. We need to keep hammering on the facts that establsih, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the official story of 9-11 is false. We need to become broken records and keep broadcasting those irrefutable facts over and over and over again.
I personally do not like words and labels and groups and group names very much. We need to be a loose association and need to act as free individuals in our efforts to establsih 9-11 truth.
Blessings from Dachsie in Austin.
OFF TOPIC!!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2006/211206primeminister.htm
THIS JUST IN!!
Michael Meacher.... 9/11 Truther is in contention for BRITISH PRIME MINISTER!?
WOW!! If this is even possible? Is this a seat elected by the people? I'm unfamiliar with the appointment of Prime Minister.
Loose Change Translation
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7033453099719333471&sourceid=ze...
on Googles Up and Comers at #100 with 5,000 views
the PORTUGESE translation!!!!
World Wide BABY.... YES!!!
Not long untill we see the Aborigine translation
In the bigger scheme of things,Were We "persuaded"?
Who are the terrorists? Are they the people who invade and illegally occupy other people’s lands, or the indigenous people who resist being illegally occupied? Answer carefully, because one day each of us might have to make this choice, to decide to fight for our independence again, or to roll over to the liars and allow them rule and ruin the US as they have ruined so many other places in the world. Also, isn’t it funny that the liars never mention the things that Israel says about Arabs, Palestinians, and Islam? No one ever mentions the provocations, the threats, the occupation, the killing, the mischief, and the targeted assassinations? If they did, it would become obvious that the evil presumption that guides our foreign policy does not find its origin in the American psyche, it was implanted there by our supposed ally and its wicked friends. No American has ever, until now believed in illegal invasions, illegal occupations, preemptive attacks, and torture as a way to have peace. The reality is that Israel does not want peace in the Middle East. They want chaos, and war and they have used US life and treasure to get what they want by poisoning the American psyche with hate and fear…until now. I've had more than enough of this crap.
911bloglines.com finished
911bloglines.com finished 5-Hour Special Xmas 9/11 Truthling Watch Marathon Podcast/Pamcast
By ewing2001
911bloglines.com
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/ewing2001?id=2418
911 Truthling Watch -Special Xmas Holiday Best of 2006 PamCast
The Time of Glorification of the Orwellian 9/11 Truthling Movement
is over- Best of the Oppressed in a 5 hour skypecast/pamcast marathon.
(Music supported by own channel at Pandora.com and mixes by DJPatrick2006)
https://skypecasts.skype.com/skypecasts/skypecast/detailed.html?id_talk=...
Hosted by ewing2001
Repeat
Finished at December 21, 19:51
On Thursday, December 21st 2006, 911bloglines.com presented a 5 hour podcast marathon, presenting the highlights of oppressed 9/11 research and -activism of 2006.
Main focus:
1) evidence of 9/11 TV fakery
(911tvfakery.net, 911logic.blogspot.com, Coffinman YOUTUBE channel,
Killtown's 2nd hit page, TheWebfairy.com and many others)
2) evidence on the use of ExoW (exotic weaponry) on 9/11, especially for the demolition of the Twin Towers
3) evidence on the infiltration at the TOP of the 9/11 Truthling Movement and their suspicious ties to Los Alamos Programs, CIA Spook Central, U.S. Military and Club of Rome PsyOps
In these 5 hours we also extensively covered the background of:
David Ray "God-Zilla" Griffin
-running 2 cults at the same time; 9/11 'Truth' Movement and a bizarre chinese pantheism cult,
inspired by Wacko Alfred North Whitehead and the CFR.
-plagiarized 9/11 Research
-linked to Club of Budapest , Club of Rome, LUCE-FORD-ROCKEFELLER foundations and the dubious AAR-Pluralism project via his publisher Interlink,
see Cestetson: The dubious background of the Griffin-Barrett Books
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2401
Steven E Jones
-sabotaged a free energy project in 1989, on behalf of a "DOE Informant"
-helped developing ExoW for Los Alamos Departments
-covering up the existance and use of such, especially on 9/11
see also ScrewLoose about ProfJones/"HeavyWaterGate": "Deniers Turning on Dr Jones?"
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2374
Steven "Los Alamos" Jones/HeavyWaterGate: Cold Fusion Patent Holder linked to U.S. Army Future Weaponry Committee
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2382
Pre-9/11 Cold Fusion U.S. Patent, once blocked by Steven E. Jones, linked to suspicious murder
http://www.bloglines.com/blog/ewing2001?id=2364
Jim Hofmann
-multiple links to NSA and NASA
-his familiy Hoffman/Armstrong received pre-9/11 Trailblazer/StarWars contracts of NRO/NSA
via Veridian and other companies
Archbishop Bob Bowman
-another orwellian doublethink/doublespeak cultist, once supportive of StarWars during the Reagan Aera
-wants to turn the 9/11 Truthling Movement into an Orwellian 9/11 Truthling Party
-yet another pseudo religious culster
Attorney Alexander Floum aka "GeorgeWashington"
see Alex Floum is Top-Lapdog of biggest Traitor of U.S. since George Westinghouse (1880)
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2325
Kevin "Dr. Weirde" Barrett
-see infos on his publisher above
("The only authentic member of Al Quaida" , joke circulating around at
St.Mark's Church /ny911truth audience about MUJCA being a "sleeper cell" for Al-Qaida and Barret's british ties when he was writing under the pseudonym "Dr. Weirde" ), see also
O'Reilly: Kevin Barrett chickened out on ExoW talk
Alex Jones
-supportive of Scientology members and memes, i.e. Dr. John Breeding, "PrisonPlanet" etc..
see also Alex Jones Promotes Scientology-Affiliated Leaders
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2161
Alex Jones invites official 9/11 Story Supporter Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2370
LooseChange
-finally starting to sell out this week in a fishy interview with Mark Roberts, where they
apparently lost the argument on purpose, furthermore promoted the hangout doku "9/11 Press for Truth" (Kyle "America isn't ready for the Truth" Hence)
see
Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas "Debate" Mark Roberts and Ronald Wieck
http://www.bloglines.com/preview?siteid=6120684&itemid=2392
Les Jamieson
-running 2 cults at the same time; ny911truth.org and URANTIA (itself infiltrated by OSS/CIA/NSA since the 50s), see http://alexconstantine.blogspot.com/2006/12/nico-haupt-ny911truth-bizarr...
and others
The 5-Hour Special Xmas 9/11 Truthling Watch Marathon was aired from 1 PM - 6 PM EST
and partly recorded as a PAMCast, which will be outsourced as a MP3 Remix in the near future
It also followed some other special skypecasts this week, also together with Rick Siegel.
Special Thanks for all guests this week (Coffinman, Total911, 911logic.blogspot, PeggyCarter, Killtown and many others), especially also today for Fred aka BSRegistration (911blogger.com)
and Rosalee Grable aka TheWebfairy.
In 5 hours we got the word out on 911bloglines.com and 911researchers.com (Rick Siegel's News Portal), also talking with random guests and "visitors" from
-Argentina
-Belgium
-Brazil
-Denmark
-England
-France
-Germany
-Greece
-Ireland
-Netherlands
-Poland
911bloglines.com will continue with Pt.2 of the Xmas Special Podcast on Sunday 24/12/06, possibly at around 3 PM EST (t.b.a.)
Posted on: Thu, Dec 21 2006
Dont come to conclusions
Dont decide what happened before hand. Focus on finding key facts that make the "official" story impossible. I have my theories about who did what. But I could be completely wrong about the who and still be correct about the what... Is it possible for all those buildings to come down as they did without the help of explosives...Yes No? Who planted the bombs can come out later when people are on TV being asked very sensitive questions by Congress.
mi-li are simply 9/11 shop talk terms
Mihop and Lihop are especially useful within the 9/11 truth movement. The primary proponet of the terms, Webster Tarpley, has analysis which is very on point, as is his terminology. We should allow nothing this trivial to divide our movement from working together as a whole. Our disagreement's should only bring us together and better develop our ideas. The diversity of the 9/11 truth movement is an important reason why 9/11 truth has the ability to avoid the framing of the political parties (aka Lakoff though Lakoff's ideas about framing are talking more about double-think style use of linguistics to set up the dem's and repub's). We should allow our movement to spread across the left right paradigm. Mihop and Lihop are great references. If you don't like them, don't use them.
The terms do not harm us. If the press happens to cover these terms it will only give new people more confidence in opening up to 9/11 truth. Seeing that there are different views within the movement will surely help someone new to the subject feel more comfortable. And generally speaking....No press is bad press.
Mihop and Lihop is one authors way of interpeting the subject. If you need it for a quick reference, feel free to use it.
Diversity within the 9/11 truth movements "shop-talk" terms only increases our ability to communicate efficiently within an organized movement.
Not All MIHOP is physical
A crucial piece of evidence which Webster Tarpley brings amazing research to the table in support DIRECTLY of the MIHOP is the "Angel is Next" or "Air Force One is Next" threat. This was a threat placed directly to Bush on 9/11 and it was received through a series of secret top level code words. A number of these code words are changed daily. This implied a mole network that spread across numerous agencies with access to very high levels of goverment communications. In Tarpley's 9/11 Synthetic Terror, the author goes in length through the news coverage of this including New York Times, Rice, Cheney, Clake and other bush administration officials as well as a number of foreign press reports on it. This threat of course was later denied after it started weakening the official story. This is crucial because it is during the "Angel is Next" threat in which the rogue element within the government carrying out the attacks, ACTUALLY SPEAKS!