Organized Disruption Hits NY911Truth
A few weeks back I blogged here that St Marks church had swastikas and photos of feces posted on its walls as part of a disruption campaign waged by activist/researcher Nico Haupt. The following is the video of these events - in unedited form.
Some key things to look out for:
1 - Haupt repeatedly curses and rages, hurling obscenities at participants of this event, some of whom are simply attempting to calm the situation down and restore order in the church. In one case he nearly comes to blows with an individual he is accusing of betraying America.
2 - At one point you will see complaints trickling in from the upstairs residents who were holding a theatrical event. Haupts screaming was disturbing other residents of the church.
3 - It has been announced that 911 events at St Marks are now suspended.
4 - Haupt posted photos on the wall of human feces and swastikas and concentration camps - exactly mirroring the cointelpro disruption techniques utilized by the FBI against Jerry Rubin and Abbie Hoffman.
5 - Haupt repeatedly erroneously claims that he founded NY911Truth in 2003. This is untrue. In fact, the individual he claims was the co-founder (Nicholas Levis) denies Haupt's claims, as do Cristian Flemming and Mitch Thompson (the other 2 original founders of NY911Truth)
6 - Haupt references and supports the following researcher and researchers in his tirade:
- Dr Fetzer
- Judy Woods
- TVFakery
- Space Beams
- 911 Eyewitness
- Morgan Reynolds
For a better understanding of the relationship of these researchers, please review the following chart:
http://crisisinamerica.org/media/disinformation.htm
7 - Haupt smears the following researchers in his tirade:
- David Ray Griffin
- Robert Bowman
- 911Truth.org
- Les Jamieson
- Alex Floum aka George Washington
- Dr Steven Jones
Let us be clear. This has all the hallmarks of an organized disruption campaign designed to intimidate and scare away innocent participants and members of St Marks Church in NYC.
Let us be clear. Regardless of your beliefs, this behavior is simply unacceptable in a public place - and the use of obscene imagery in a church constitutes an actionable offense.
Let us be clear. This behavior constitutes an attack upon our community. Regardless of your belief system, this behavior threatens and disturbs the peace, incites violence (as can clearly be seen in the video), defames and slanders members of our community, and constitutes a gross violation of simple common-sense decency.
And lastly - let us be clear that although the rash of threatening rhetoric and harassment campaigns, which has included threatening mailings to 911 Truth member's home addresses, cannot DIRECTLY be linked to Mr. Haupt - much of it echoes the rhetoric, vitriol, anger, accusations, imagery and incitements to violence that Mr. Haupt espouses, and Mr. Haupt would do well to consider the legal ramifications of continuing to disrupt and harass this community.
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Everybody is a part of
Everybody is a part of Nico's conspiracy now.
Nico Disguised
Nico Haupt disguised as a Drunk, Homeless man attacks 9/11 meeting group. Calls everyone a victim of "CIA" "mind control" except for himself.
When was this filmed...
Anyone know, I heard references to "by the end of 2006".
I'm just trying to get an idea of the timeline.
Thanks
http://www.911blogger.com/nod
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5972
Jan. 21st
It was
January 21, 2007
Thanks...
appreciated.
Disinfo info age?
Where's the new film?
Justice deferred is justice denied-MLK
Its coming
i am working on it feverishly. guess what new footage i need to add now....
looking forward to it
Don't mean to apply pressure. Thanks for your work.
Justice deferred is justice denied-MLK
Not so far from the norm
Having gone to those meetings for over a year, I can say that this is only the worst example of something that happens every other week. And Les' response in this video was the norm.
This kind of lax moderation, not asking Nico to leave after he continued to disrupt the play upstairs, not preventing continual disrupters from returning, having no explicit quidelines for venue behavior, results in what you see in this video. It's kind of like one of our many online discussion fora. If you don't have a firm moderation strategy, the whole thing turns to mush. After a while, it wears you down. And so I stopped going.
While I was there, I tried to suggest ways that we could more stringently moderate the venue. But my concerns were met with a 'stay the course' attitude. And so, unfortunately, none of this surprises me very much. This is the direction in which things were heading when I left.
That being said, I can only hope that NY911Truth pulls itself together, and addresses these issues in an effective manner. For those interested in helping, I would suggest offering Les some strategies for group moderation.
International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org
911... it's not just for calendars anymore.
I'm aghast. I can't imagine why he wasn't asked to leave and then, if he didn't comply, why five different people didn't have their cellphones out calling 911. I can guarantee that's what would have happened at our local group. (If, due to church policy, the group would not be authorized to ask the police to remove him, then the church is simply not a venue where meetings can take place. That's too bad, but it's just reality.)
I think it was also bad judgment for anyone to have tried to engage him in dialogue when it appears that he was intoxicated. (As the blonde woman says, "He needs to sober up.")
Frankly, I'm more curious about the motivations of the people who facilitated his "participation" (by getting into a discussion about Urantia, for example) than about his own motives.
I hate to engage in gossip
...but, its not gossip since it was publicly announced.
Sometime after this incident Tom Foti (the man who attempts to debate Nico in the black Loose Change T-shirt) was kicked out of NY911Truth by Les in a public email that circulated. The reason given was that Tom was sharing emails and private stratgies with Nico - even after this incident. There was then a series of disruptions (according to Les) where Tom Foti publicly confronted Les on the Nico/Urantia claims.
Additionally, according to Les' emails Tom was attending private meetings with Nico Haupt.
again - does this have all the hallmarks of infiltration?
I also share your confusion as to WHY Nico was allowed to disrupt in this way - and was actually engaged long enough to disrupt. he should have been removed immediately - ESPECIALLY considering what this man has done in the past.
I have no opinions regarding the Tom Foti situation. I am just relaying to you - paraphrasing - what was already publically announced.
Really important context.
I think that's too important to qualify as gossip. I was going to mention that guy more specifically, but was giving him the benefit of the doubt -- and I should not have. Even without knowing what you've mentioned, I thought that situation looked very much like a tag-team act, and one in which Nico was the useful idiot half.
This is another good indication that real disruption or disinfo is likely to be much more subtle than Nico as a one-man show (sans handler.)
Moreover, unless they were concerned for their physical safety (which could definitely be the case -- and if so, makes imperative the 911 call), I think someone should have just taken the papers down off the wall. Sitting through an entire meeting with a picture of poop on the wall seems completely absurd.
i doubt it was a safety issue
Nico Haupt's a lightweight.
BOLLOCKS!
I'll admit I'm on a computer without speakers right now, so it's pointless for me to watch the vid, but if it's as bad as you describe, you ask the man to leave ONCE, and when the prat doesn't do it, YOU THROW HIM OUT PHYSICALLY OR CALL 911. Otherwise you lot look like ineffective drama queens.
I know you are NOT going to like my post, but bloody well deal. Unless you can admit you could have done a HELL of a lot better managing the situation, and plan to do better in future, you can't expect everyone to jump to your defense when you're not doing everything possible to defend yourself. Next time KICK THE BITCH OUT!
BTW: if someone does not leave when you ask them to it IS A SAFETY ISSUE. By defying you they are sending a message that they intend to push you around and you don't want to learn where that could end.
I'll wait to express the rest of my irritation until I can actually view this shite, but frankly, it's not sounding to good for your legal case.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
I am assuming the sane
I am assuming the sane thing--he was asked to leave at some point. >:(
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
i was not there
but i agree 100%.
"i was not there" Point
"i was not there"
Point taken.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
You're right, but have one thing wrong...
John wasn't at this meeting. He only obtained the video. So it's unrelated to any case he's building.
Otherwise, you are absolutely right. This kind of behavior is intolerable. Those who do tolerate it, invite it. You are seeing the "leadership" of Les Jamiesen and the "big tent" philosophy in action. I ran many of these meetings in the past and never allowed it to get like this! I broke with the group around Les for this and similar reasons: complete lack of standards in the research, as well as in the running of the meetings. No focus. Meetings on "shape shifting" and all kinds of esoteric extranea.
---
"Truth is not measured in mass appeal."
summeroftruth.org
Get a clue
.."person I have been reserving judgment on". Let's just say the pendulum is swinging against you now.
IF--a person is behaving in an agressive threatening manner;
AND--when called on it they do not stop;
AND--when asked to leave they refuse and indicate they have no interest in modifiying their behavior to prove they can be trusted...
THEN--it is your RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY to take whatever action eliminates the threat to public safety. That includes, depending on the circimstances, up to and including lethal force.
Now I just said throw him out or call 911--but since you want to bring up things to think about--
Allowing bullys/violent agressive people to act out, unchallenged sends them a message they can get away with it, and they WILL keep pushing until either they really hurt someone or they get shot dead. So, mate, you really are doing them a favor by using whatever force is necessary to curb their behavior NOW.
Oh, and re:violence? You sound WAY too much like the useless idiots I ignored as a teen--thank god--who said things like "don't fight back--you might get hurt!" So you're advocating we should let ourselves be victimized instead of taking control of the situation when we can.
YOU might want to think about THAT, sunbeam--because that shite is not happening.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
You haven't a clue, "Constitutionalist":
Add a real name to your shit, then call DHS and report my name as a person you also think is suffering from "violent dementia" for knowing that the DHS can't do jack-shit in providing security before the only person who can... one's self.
Noted & logged... sure thing.
Rick
Shouldn't you be busy working on your own website that you share with the swastika feces guy? Perhaps you can roll out some new credible theories like mini nukes, space beams and no-planes. i'm sure all the victim's families appreciate the JOB you do protecting america.
remember when you asked me
remember when you asked me why i thought you were annoying? yeah........
So reading comprehension--not so much?
I'll remind you--again--I suggested throwing him out OR calling 911. The rest was just to clairfy why and when your "don't advicate violence" shtick won't work. And how I KNOW that from personal experience.
Is English your native language?
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Like you? I don't KNOW you.
But from your one track minded posts you either are clueless OR are trying to start shite.
If it's the second one, yeah, I won't like you.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Now you've done it...TROLL ALERT!
It's been ages, hasn't it, everyone?
Chris was TALKING ABOUT someone beating him--right. TALKING ABOUT--specifiaclly wondering how long before someone beat Nico. Not saying HE would or would approve. But surprised someone hasn't. I said Nico should be thrown out--86'd, tresspassed, however you want to say it--what you do when someone is being threatening and disruptive AND they won't leave. Call your local cop shop for clairification.
Now everyone gets the context of our posts--except YOU. And you go one step further by taking everything else I said ENTIRELY out of context. Given that you seem to be reasonably intelligent, and you do not claim English IS NOT your native language, I can only conclude this is deliberate on your part. These are the actions of a disruptor--hence the "TROLL ALERT".
Oh, and "passive/agressive" much?:
"Since this fruitless debate is really about--"
You started this "debate" by baiting us--over nothing. So if you're unhappy where it's going--because we're calling you on your shite?--you only have yourself to blame.
Have a nice day. :)
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
oh jesus
this guy is so obviously just here to divert attention away from Haupt. Its like every post he puts up is some sort of challenge - bait - intentional twisting of words to frustrate you - all the while keeping this faux "i'm just being reasonable' tone about it. he is BAITING you. He is attempting to make this board sound like it is a debate about people advocating violence against Haupt. The more you respond the more he wins.
again.
NICO HAUPT IS SEEN ON VIDEO HERE DISRUPTING A NY911TRUTH MEETING. HE USES FECES AND SWASTIKAS TO DEFILE A CHURCH. HE CURSES AND PARTIICIPANTS AND INCITES VIOLENCE. THE CHURCH HAS WITHDRAWN THIS SPACE FOR FUTURE NY911TRUTH MEETINGS.
HE IS CLEARLY SUPPORTED IN THESE TACTICS BY A NEXUS OF 'PEOPLE' WHO POST HERE WITH AGENDAS UNKNOWN.
END OF STORY. LEAVE IT AT THAT AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES WHO THE ASSHOLES ARE.
It just NYC and Les
With all the rational diversity and intelligence presence in NYC, any regular meeting in this city concerning 9/11 truth will invariably be contested ground. No one called the cops, because everyone is used to it. Sad, huh?
While I have no hard feelings toward anyone in that group, having left a long time ago, I do hold Les responsible for that mess. Its easy to look at him as a victim, but as he admits in the video, Nico has been a problem for years, and yet Les allowed him to come in to the church, yet again (same outcome every time), and then essentially allowed him to take the stage.
Criticizing Les Jamieson has gotten me into trouble in the past, as those who know him only generally from conferences and movement events, have a generally positive impression of his contribution. And, of course, I'm not knocking his past contribution to the movement. But one of the most prominent local 9/11 groups in the country is run by someone who simply hasn't demonstrated over a long period of time, that he has the ability or even willingness to prevent what you see in this video.
I'm not suggesting that Les not continue to work as he does for our cause. I'm suggesting that not everyone is good at every job, something I've said to him many times. And that if Les is not willing to work with others to address his deficiencies and this concern, that he is essentially enabling this kind of environment.
I'm ready for criticism on this. Please tell me why you think I'm off base here. But remember that I have a great deal of direct experience dealing with Les, and that my intent is certainly not to undermine the group, as it really has no further to fall.
Les needs our help. He needs us to convince him that the present strategy isn't working. To let him know that things need to change. To encourage him to work better with others to affect these changes.
I've already tried, and so I leave this in the hands of others, who may have an approach that would be more effective.
The meeting should have been over for
Nico at the point where he calls someone a "fucking moron" (which is *very* early in the vid.) If Les was not willing to assume the responsibilities of a moderator and take the steps necessary to get Nico to leave at that point, then he is not doing a good job. I'd really like to hear a sane argument otherwise.
I suggest that everyone watch the video a second time -- at least the group part, which is about the first half. Pay close attention to who is *helping* Nico get his message out -- either actively or passively. (Hint: proposing something as a question or even denying it, while explicitly and repeatedly putting the words together, can be a form of cooperation.)
It's very easy to point the finger at Nico, but it is obvious to me that he would be the easiest kind of disruption to deal with if the group was not clearly dysfunctional. Subtle disruption is a lot more tricky.
Good point.
"It's very easy to point the finger at Nico, but it is obvious to me that he would be the easiest kind of disruption to deal with if the group was not clearly dysfunctional."
Well said. The very fact that this should be easy to deal with is my primary cause for concern. Its harder in NYC than you might think, but you are still right. Its also bold of you to say so. Accountability!
I've seen Les defend himself by claiming no authority, and acting like a victim. But as the leader of the group, even though he denies the group has a leader, he is in many ways accountable. I've heard all his many excuses, and after a while, its meaningless. The result is what matters.
And we are talking about a condition that hasn't changed in almost two years. Trust me, many people have offered suggestions about how to resolve this issue. But Les has a way of deflecting everything that doesn't fit his often private intentions.
As for Tom? There's no conspiracy to be found there. While he may have allied with Nico to attack Les, they did it for different reasons, and have no past of future together. While Tom, in that video, is giving Nico more than a fair shake, I'm a lot more concerned about the fact that Nico was allowed to be there in the first place.
Les Jamieson must adapt!
Suggestions such as...
A new moderator for the group, preferably a small group of long-time members who take turns.
A written statement of what is unacceptable behavior in a meeting.
An agreed-to SOP for blatant meeting disruptions (soandso will call the cops, Bubba will stand near him to discourage him from approaching other people in the group while waiting for the police, someone will document the event in writing, etc etc.)
This group, as currently constituted, may be a lost cause, but it is important for people in OTHER groups who read this board to know that this is NOT how to handle someone disruptive, and that handling it more effectively is not rocket science.
I feel that's definitely a good start from my experience there
I have always felt Les' leadership has been paralyzing the group. Rotating leaders and really more discussion and debate on the overall direction the group should go and why it should focus on certain issues would help. Better planning with reasonable short-term objectives is key. I think a different format for the general meetings is needed because they have basically been reduced to people being lectured to and watching the same several films instead of being participatory. And multiple members having input on the website, which should have far more updated information, would help too.
Also, along with Jim Hoffman's excellent work on this topic, here is a link to Eric Salter's (a video professional) critique of the 'No Plane' and 'TV Fakery' theories. I haven't seen this mentioned on this blog, but this was a very helpful article for me when I was trying to clarify so much information coming from so many directions last year.
http://www.questionsquestions.net/WTC/review.html#update1
You're right about Tom Foti, Jules
At least that's my perception from watching the video. I never met the guy, but he seemed reasonable. He was trying to calm Nico down and moderate the situation. For that, he gets labeled as complicit with Nico in government subterfuge.
And now I've defended Nico and Tom. Guess that makes me a shill or a gullible newbie. Which is it, false accusations or patronization?
This is the person
who Webster Tarpley quotes on the back cover of all three editions of Synthetic Terror.
I don't understand that.
The Eleventh Day of Every Month
yeah me niether! Webster....
yeah me niether!
Webster.... you got some esplaining to do!
Well, Tarpley was a Larouchie for a long time...
Does anyone understand THAT?
[hands out grains of salt]
keep a few of these nearby, they can come in handy!
____
♠
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
Marketing
Like it or not Nico Haupt has an audience. Tarpley is selling books. Do the math.
Marketing
Like it or not Nico Haupt has an audience. Tarpley is selling books. Do the math.
who/where is Nico's audience?
I've only ever seen him in online videos, drunk in bars or churches. he looks like a homeless man. where is his following exactly? and I mean proof of real people not a teeming horde of online aliases... not a single person I have ever spoken to about 9/11 has made any reference to him. not one. he seems to exist online and at select 9/11 events only.
____
♠
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
unfortunately
and i hate to admit it - Nico Haupt has been able to leverage himself on the internet, and reaches a huge audience.
for example -
Google 911Blogger: Results 1 - 10 of about 139,000 for 911blogger
Google 911Truth: Results 1 - 10 of about 179,000 for 911Truth
Google Nico Haupt: Results 1 - 10 of about 269,000 for Nico Haupt
But google hit dominance through spamming
does not automatically translate into an actual audience.
I find it extremely hard to believe that Haupt is the most popular person who enjoyed Tarpley's book.
Or even in the top 10.
The Eleventh Day of Every Month
no - not popular
just an inexplicable cultural phenomenon. nearly from the very beginning this guy was positioned dead-center in the movement, with a sense of internet prowess that mystified all of us. For those of us who knew him personally we wondered HOW such a wingnut could be accomplishing such a thing. The sheer volume of material he has produced over the last 5 years is phenomenal - and - from the very beginning geared towards DISRUPTION and ATTACKS.
hmmmm.....
I seem to recall
some New York publications featuring Nico in their synopses of 9/11 Truth a year or two ago. He has had some "mainstream" attention, unfortunately.
I'm giving Webster the benefit of the doubt here
thinking that he's just remembering the pre-meltdown researcher. Or maybe he just doesn't take Nico's act that seriously. Remember, the clowns don't run the circus.
That's what I've been doing
I like Webster Tarpley. Funny, the one time I had a chance to hang out with Webster, Nico was also in the immediate vicinity..
I'm going to send WT a link to this thread.
The Eleventh Day of Every Month
Tarpley has endorsed
some odd things lately. There's not only the Nico thing, he also endorsed the "9/11 Revealed" book by those English guys (I believe he was speaking in DC -- I saw the video online). That struck me as odd because the State Department mentioned that book (of the dozens it could have chosen) for its FAQ on "conspiracy theories". Maybe it was the only skeptics book they had read, but Jim Hoffman offered this critique of 9/11 Revealed.
9/11 Revealed isnt that bad
9/11 Revealed isnt that bad at all, Hoffman needs to get off of his highhorse already. i like the guys work but come on already Jim.
Hoffman seems pissed
mostly because the authors don't credit his website, which is where they seem to get much of their information.
But I think there's always reason to do a double-take when the State Department props up a certain book as representative of 9/11 Truth.
well, representative of
well, representative of "disinformation" in their words, but i see your point. have you read it though? its got a wide array of evidence laid out in a very quick and clear manner. it does the job, i own it, so i wouldnt worry too much about the fact that the state department propped it up.
huh?
So he posts his name (or somebody does) all over the internet--that doesn't mean he has a following, it just means he's overexposed...
The question is how many people actually read his stuff or take him seriously?
p>____
♠
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
good question
its kinda like "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
i have no idea. i just know this guy has been around disrupting since the beginning. i am more interested in WHY.
well i think the why is obvious
but i still think nico does a pretty good job of discrediting himself. And as long as there are a lot more serious researchers and advocates than there are nicos, it shouldn't hurt the acceptance of 9/11 as a topic needing serious debate and discussion. A more direct strategy is to make sure that the loudest and most hilarious mocking of nico come from the 9/11 truth community. That makes it impossible for shills to gain any points by trying to claim that nico represents the movement. Same reason why Uncle Fetzer should be regularly denounced by us for as long as he receives attention from the mainstream media. Their focus on types like him and nico will just out their dishonest treatment.
____
♠
Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero
WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force
Don't underestimate it...
He has regular mailing lists that include all the major newspapers and television companies...
He spams them with this BS BIGTIME !!!
That has the effect of instilling a base reaction of rejection to "real" 9/11 truthers.
That's my take on it anyway.
The internet can make an individual far more damaging than they could be without it.
Large scale awareness is the start, rejecting and isolating the bunk is the next step.
Best wishes
What you are saying
is something I have feared for a long time.
I don't mean to overly
I don't mean to overly critical here but judging from that meeting NY911Truth is a mess, there seems to be no cohesion. The scene there in fact almost reminds me of somthing from "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest". It comes across as absent of enough people who know what there doing and are switch on. I don't know enough about Les Jameson, but why is he "leading"? He doesn’t seem like he's on the ball at all, other people need to step up and energise and organise things a lot better.
Already tried. Please do be critical.
Now I may not have been the best person to affect a change in the group, but I'm not the only one who has tried. The list is long. Talented people who came and went. Les just isn't really very flexible.
He actually has claimed for quite some time that the group has no leader, and yet he is basically responsible for all administrative functions. This is an important point as I wouldn't be writing any of this if he weren't the leader. People in leadership positions are more accountable than others for making decisions that affect everyone.
You are correct. "He doesn’t seem like he's on the ball at all, other people need to step up and energise and organise things a lot better."
But I'll stop there, as my intention is not to slander Les Jamison, but merely to inform, set the record straight, and to hope someone is able to get though to Les, and help him move things in a positive direction.
International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org
People need to stand up and
People need to stand up and shake up that group, this should never be about just one man (Les), it's teamwork. Also I don't know any of the circumstances so this could be totally inaccurate, but I couldn’t see any "lets win this" attitude there, I couldn’t see any electricity or enthusiasm. All I saw in the video aside from the disruption, was essentially a bunch of people sitting around very quietly, very passively and it just strikes me as something which should be much more alive than that.
It's up to people like you Jules and the guys at TruthMove to go back and try and inject some dynamism in there. You don’t have to try and wrestle away power from Les, rather encourage an atmosphere where everyone is so engaged and enthusiastic that roles like Les' become redundant. It seems like Les has created a situation, which has resulted in NY911Truth becoming stagnant. I could be completely wrong about that, but it’s what everyone keeps saying, and have been saying for a while.
Good insight, Dem...
I totally agree with you on the pathetic, unimpassioned vibe of NY911. The meetings at St. Marks lack spirit, inspiration, and pride. The place/group actually seem to suck the energy out of you. For such an important movement (keeping the light of truth alive and saving the world, basically), there has never been a commensurate presence of inspiration with NY911. Nick Levis, Frank Morales, Luke Rudkowski, and maybe a few others sometimes rose to the occasion and actually energized the group, but in general the place is an energy drain.
When I was working with the group, last year, I specifically tried to address this issue. I repeatedly brought up the idea that we needed to have more pride and spirit in our meetings, but nobody really seemed to hear me. Honestly, I don't see much to salvage from that particular group; it seems best to start fresh in NYC.
And if your looking for culprits on the subjects of lack of spirit, mediocrity, and the failure of NY911Truth, look no further than Mr. Les Jamieson.
International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org
scumbag did his job....
3 - It has been announced that 911 events at St Marks are now suspended.
mission accomplished huh Nico? you fucking scumbags........
New development
It appears that Jim Fetzer's attorney Jerry Leaphart, who Fetzer inserted (along with Rick Siegel) into the Scholars of 911 Truth steering committee, has now given a radio interview with Judy Woods on directed energy weapons.
now how do you explain this?
someone emailed me yesterday who was privy to the entire Scholars meltdown. it is her opinion that James Fetzer may suffer from dementia/alz. which may explain his strange behaviors and support of Judy Woods.
well - it appears Fetzer's attorney has caught Fetzer's mental illness because he is now advocating for 'space beams' also.
is it me? or is it just too improbable that all of these professional lawyers and scholars and previous Bush administration members could all be so hoodwinked by Judy (seems like she's on drugs) Woods?
How do we explain this OTHER than cointelpro?
Paranoia?
JUST KIDDING!!!
I haven't seen this movie yet, so I can't comment on it. As Chris pointed out, St. Mark's Church no longer allows ny911truth.org to use said Church. Score one for Nico Haupt.
Is it true that Nico Haupt smells like urine? I was told that sometimes he would show up at St. Mark's smelling like urine.
I would think he smells more like sh_t since that is what he is a piece of.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
funny guy
my new film has G. Gordo Liddy in it saying: "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
Nico smells like a turd, rolled in burnt hair, mixed with indian food in a used diaper. (on a good day)
but that's part of the psyops. he would show up at ground zero to 'support our efforts' and scare little old ladies away.
There's nothing wrong with
There's nothing wrong with Indian food, also has Nico got dreads or something LOL?
no
just venting. i apologize to the 1 billion people from India whom i have offended by comparing their food to Nico Haupt.
He reminded me of...
Louis Winthorpe III (played by Dan Aykroyd) in Trading Places...
After the firms Christmas Party, when he's sat on the bus eating the salmon....
If you know what I mean :) - Sorry if you don't
Could also be modelling himself on Hagrid (from Harry Potter).
Isn't that what Fetzer told BBC?
>>my new film has G. Gordo Liddy in it saying: "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
Hey JA... Is this the "Jerry Leaphart" who's...
caught space-beamitis...
http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/PersonDetail.aspx?PersonID=98275064
Cheers
That's him
works out of a single office in Danbury Connecticut. Does seminars on Quaker lifestyles.
Re: New development
From memory (I'll check the details if need be):
I sent a very pointed email to Mr. Leaphart... with a few questions and observations about Frtzer I specifically requested him to address, before I would feel comfortable working with him [Leaphart] on his NIST Injunction effort.
I told him that I was genuinely intrigued with the approach he was suggesting, which I was. "However", I felt it was important that he respond in some way to the concerns of my friends in dc911truth, that his association to the strangely behaving Fetzer was valid reason for pause.
He responded vaguely, and I felt he shifted ground to reemphasize back to exotic weapons.
I sent another one... no response.
After the release of Dr. Jenkins' video interview (at which, both myself and Leaphart were also present)... Esq. Leaphart sent me a final email wondering why I hadn't made a copy of the video available to him before the internet posting, as I had simply agreed at the NPC it seemed a good thing to share with all of the participants.
The video was not my property. I even debated with the dc group as to the wisdom and possible repercussions of the ensuing debates such a video was sure to attract... as it has. (Overall, I think Greg's handling of the material has yelled a net positive, regardless my own personal concerns about the snares which may still remain ahead. To be dealt with, at that time.)
I said then, I'll say now, and probably again in the future... the space-beam theory is not a weapons debate... it's an energy debate. My strongest caution to all who may feel knowledgeable and compelled to engage this subject; If one thinks 911 is a viper's nest of dis-info and blind-ally confusion... the energy debate is a vipers nest, made from goat-head thistle, in a pit lined with mines, ringed with pill-boxes. Enter at own risk.
That Leaphart has held out a legal "get-the-gov" carrot... yet then showed his willingness to bog this movement down over the ownership of a frig'n website... is simply wrong. I would have no part with the man.
e
"that is what the military does when there is nothing else to do." -911truthiness
I like the gist of your
I like the gist of your statement, but maybe I can provide some insight on the more simplified truth of it all.
We will never convince the public masses that the official story is too full of holes and does not pass the sniff test if the theories that we push are just as improbable and unlikely.
Anyone who pushes "TV Fakery" or "beam weapons" is pushing theories which are 100,000x more unlikely than the official story, and when given the choice the average person will always choose the official story over these extremely weak theories.
This is self evident
anyone with half an ounce of common-sense understands that space beams and no-planes theories discredit the movement.
the underlying question is whether these absurdist theories are INTENTIONALLY being used to discredit us.
While it is self evident to
While it is self evident to people who have been in this movement for a bit, it is NOT self evident to people who are new to this movement. This is readily apparent by looking at the newbies who are falling for the bogus claims that we are trying to "prevent their research", etc.
We must keep the statement I made above front and center in these discussions to prevent people from falling into believing that we are the bad guys as some of the more weak minded newbies apparently have.
You can tell yourself that everyone who pushes these theories are agents (or whatever), but some of them are just gullible and falling for their lies (that everyone in the movement is working for the CIA and covering up their theories). The statement I make above makes the obvious point in common language that everyone should be able to understand and might just prevent people from falling into their trap.
I essentially agree with your statement
but - i think it is equally important that we never cease to hammer and expose this issue. it is not something we can simply sweep under the rug - or attempt to even debate. debating space beams - and the merits of the research itself - would be a total waste of resources and give newbies the impression that this movement really IS a bunch of tin-foil hat theorists.
"While it is self evident to
"While it is self evident to people who have been in this movement for a bit, it is NOT self evident to people who are new to this movement."
Is this something you are proud of? The longer you're a Moonie, the more you subscribe to certain beliefs.
Not saying this a cult. Just pointing out what you seem to be saying with an extreme example.
Please come offer a rational criticism of this:
Does NIST's own data prove "no planes," and has Jones failed to disclose that in his "planes" thesis?
http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2007/01/does-nist-prove-no-planes-and-h...
Nico and others like Reynolds, Web Fairy, Holmgren, and Spooked got me to look at this issue, but I think for myself. If I didn't agree with Nico on this important issue, I wouldn't be defending him here. I don't approve of his behavior at the church, but nor do I think it is that big of a deal.
.
Whoops, I forgot Peggy Carter
In a comment here, she cited the article by Karim and Hoo Fatt
that convinced me the planes were fake. I went to the engineering library and got it. The kinetic energy loss she modeled is what Steven Jones failed to address. It is not acceptable for a scholar not to address contradictory results in a peer-reviewed journal. That's what I don't like, not that he might have worked on exotic weapons or whatever.
Karim and Hoo Fatt, Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft Into the World Trade Center, J. of Engineering Mechanics, Vol. 131, No. 10 (October 2005).
Just to clarify
The second "she" is Dr. Hoo Fatt, professor of engineering at University of Akron.
DEW: Let me make it even more simple
The theory can't be tested. Therefore it can't be proven. Therefore it is a waste of time.
If these people want to believe in this theory they should wait for an investigation to answer their "speculation".
“We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality."
Thank you
for making sure the Judy Woods video was released.
Actually...
... I was not a strong advocate for its release... initially. Had it been entirely up to me, I might have sat on it. Daring Jim and Judy to dig their hole a little deeper. I discussed with Greg my concerns about the time absorbed by this debate... and of the flies it would attract.
The energy debate is far from over, and something I find immensely important... but 911 stands in the way by orders of magnitude (think of that!). Yet we do not need to solve the tool-of-oppression-energy-paradigm (and probably can't) so long as the con of 911 clouds the public mind (again, think of that!).
The 911 con-ring can be broken up with its own terms. We shatter the 911 myth first, and there will be no shortage of exciting things to talk about and dream into existence for goodness sake.
As for Nico, nothanks:
His effect is the same.
The canyon between general public understanding, and the necessary [unknown] science instantly implied by space-beams and the like... is simply vast. Myself included, no matter one's ability to imagine and/or their admiration of Tesla.
Exactly why no theory is needed (and Nico, it seems, is the most intense theorist of them all). We only need demonstrate the OV as the horse poop it's made of... at least until they tell us one we could choke down (as if).
Despite the impressive speed of Nico-synapse, if he wants to smell and look like a Hagrid, he should at least have the polite character of a Hagrid. Yet he comes off as pure repellent, for little old ladies, curious newbies... and any remaining potential within MSM.
He creates repulsion of all things "911". (and don't ever try and tell me that I'm only here because of you, Nico!)
Next time, call the cops. (I can't believe I'm saying that, but if he gets arrested... for fighting with people about 911... what would the case sound like before a jury? For either side?)
I thank you also
Seeing Wood deny Jenkins' point about the snow cone picture -- that the smoke was coming from the North Tower behind - has made me look a lot more carefully at what she is saying. Though as with all arguments, I try to look at each on its own merits.
This same crowd is notorious
This same crowd is notorious for posting their brand of disinformation on any available commenting system. They do this to make people think they represent a commonly held belief in "TV Fakery" or "beam weapons".
Here is just one example I just found (read the comments) -> http://www.rawstory.com//news/2007/GQ__The_people_v._Richard_0221.html
That is a common hangout for CB_Brooklyn.
spot on "nothanks"...
Just do a Google and you can see how many different forums, newsboards etc they post their BS on...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=CB_Brooklyn&btnG=Google+Search
Says it all
Amazing - isn't it?
and - supposedly - this guy is a member of the NYC movement as well.
almost seems like a fulltime job to these guys. the sheer quantity of posts - and the dedication these guys guys are showing - is very suspect. it seems almost.......organized?
I hadn't intended on posting
I hadn't intended on posting all that frequently when I was forced to sign up a few weeks ago, but I guess "nothanks" isn't going to cut it.
I'll have to see if I can come up with something better and have it changed I guess :)
Just as the "straight" people complain about 9/11 Truthers
"Leave me the F*** Alone" they scream."
This kid unfortunately gets all his news from polluted sources.
If it's not approved and official, the news isn't "good."
i think nico was high that
i think nico was high that day.
Ok...
He was a high COINTELPRO.
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
How does one resist beating Nico senseless?
Cheers to everyone who dealt with his antics in a calm way. Nico is a troublemaker and I think likely without him realizing it, has in some way assumed a role as a nutcase aimed at bringing down any normal, sophisiticated group movements to expose the truth about 9/11. But there are so many of us, that there is only so much he can do. Shouldn't his VISA run out soon? Or perhaps he has the same special privileges like Atta did.
Tone it down, please
You, then Chris below, advocate violence against Nico Haupt. On a blog where John Albanese whines about being a victim. That's rich.
Well, you have slightly more
Well, you have slightly more "reason" to critique this post, but most of us recognize the statement as a rhetorical hyperbole.
You know, like when people say, "I could just strangle my boss!"? You don't actually think they're all seriously planning to murder their bosses, do you?
You should think about how strangely dense you sound...
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
And, like I said, your
And, like I said, your reading comprehension is out to breakfast, lunch, dinner and tea. :P
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Who's the LaRouchee?
At about 19:25, somebody says "We're the people who exposed Tavistock, my friend. We exposed them in '73."
"Who's we?" asked Nico.
"LaRouche."
Nico’s a total nut but he
Nico’s a total nut but he is semi correct, Larouche is an incredibly suspect and un-credible individual that 9/11 Truth should have nothing to do with.
Has Tarpley left Larouche?
Has Tarpley left Larouche?
Just a reminder...
No one has mentioned this here, but just to remind us all, Nico is now directly affiliated with Fetzer and Seigel through 911researchers.com. Its basically Seigel and Nico's site, and the Fetzer "Scholars" site now has a prominent link in the top bar.
This website is an explicit effort to discredit the movement, and Nico is playing a big role. His impact upon the movement has just become a more pressing issue than it had been.
International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org
Its also interesting to note
That Siegel publicly denied this relationship - despite the fact that Nico's website shares the same exact IP address as Siegel's.
duh
Your websites do. Several of
Your websites do. Several of your sites share the same IP address and domain name server (DNS). This means not only are they hosted on the same server, but they are both publicly using your DNS at 911citizenscourt.com (another of your sites). This isn't rocket science.
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6109/untitled2mo9.gif
It is pretty obvious you are content with just being an agitator. Why don't you go do something useful?
What's your response Rick?
Or, does the truth not matter?
Duh
911Bloglines.com:
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.911CITIZENSCOURT.COM
NS2.911CITIZENSCOURT.COM
Current Registrar: WILD WEST DOMAINS, INC.
IP Address: 207.58.134.93 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
911Eyewitness.com:
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.911CITIZENSCOURT.COM
NS2.911CITIZENSCOURT.COM
IP Address: 207.58.134.93 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
The guy who is filming...
Sounds like Donald Sutherland.
I commend EVERYONE in that room for not getting physical. This is a non-violent movement. I don't know if I could have done the same.
Who is the guy in the Loose Change shirt?
"So where is the oil going to come from?... The Middle East, with two-thirds of the world's oil and the lowest cost, is still where the prize ultimately lies."
Richard Cheney - Chief Executive Of Halliburton
Tom Foti
who has now been kicked out of the group by Les for collaborating aand attending secret meetings with Nico.
Can this get any stranger?
Hard to Kick someone out when / no official membership
*
The guy who is filming is Joe Friendly
*
Get the heck off this
Get the heck off this site you COMPLETE scumbag!
Put up, mate
Give us the link--you should be able to find it--or shut it; sounds like you're just here for trouble.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
dz deleted it
*
Then how bout the
Then how bout the URL?
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Is this true, Dem Bruce Lee Styles?
Is it not true?
It's a fair question
Can't I just get an answer? I know a church is a different matter, but I had to see the thing here, and thought it was disgusting. So I'm curious if it is true that I can thank you for that.
Sure
no planes on 911
Check
Grainy videos as proof.
Check
calling witnesses liars
Check
Twisting and misquoting everything I ever said into lies
Priceless
Wow, that's offensive. Has
Wow, that's offensive.
Has it occured to you that cameras that are pointed in different directions will show different things?
Ah, never mind.
these are all from the same
these are all from the same direction too, it doesn't mean the results wont look totally different based on zoom, focal length, etc.
One more example, from the
One more example, from the same spot with different lenses:
No two photos (or videos) can ever be taken from the exact same position, just like no two cameras have the exact same optics.
Just because you can't make sense of what you consider to be differences between videos doesn't mean that the only explanation is they are all "fake", it just means that you don't see any other possible explanation and choose to pick the most unlikely given all the evidence. Then again, your entire theory is based on tossing all evidence away as "fake", so what should we expect.
Nothanks
These are excellent examples. Thank you.
But please understand, this has been explained to Peggy over and over again. She is just not honest- and not interested in the truth.
You will notice that a thread here dealing with Nico Haupt's attack on a church with swastikas and feces and cursing and disruption tactics has degenerated into her accusing me of lying about what i witnessed on 911.
Surely, anyone with even average intelligence knows that you cannot simply compare two video clips in the way that she is suggesting. You have in fact demonstrated for her CONCRETE EVIDENCE that 2-dimensional interpretations of 3-dimensional space can NOT be reliably measured in this way with cameras. there are simply too many variables unaccounted for.
Can she dispute this point?
Does she even try?
Now - the REAL question is - why would she CONTINUE to push this evidence given the fact that cameras DEMONSTRABLY distort 3D space?
She claims that she wants to clarify the record - but only in regards to accusing ME and all the OTHER witnesses of being liars. She can't prove her case scientifically - so she resorts to personalized attacks against the witnesses.
she does not appear to give a HOOT about the evidence that YOU just presented that CONCRETELY demonstrates that cameras are not reliable in measuring size, distance, proportion and angles.
she just keeps reverting back to attacking ME. what does that tell you about the scientific foundation TVFakery is based on?
She claims it is impossible to see planes from 5 miles away? Have you ever heard anything so stupid in your life? From where i sat, on a clear day, i could regularly watch planes taking off from LaGuardia and Kennedy Airports. Have you ever looked out over a city from the top floor of a modern-day skyscraper? is she suggesting the human eye is unable to see further than 5 miles on a clear day?
What an ASS Peggy is. She is claiming that it would be impossible to see a jumbo jet strike the world trade center from 56th street?
is she kidding?
she demands access to my ex-employer's building. she must document this important research.
Sure - I'll call my old employer and tell them that a mentally ill woman would like access to their building because she wants to prove you cannot see downtown Manhattan from 56th street. sure.
lets face it. reviewing this video of Haupt - reviewing these posts by Peggy - it appears that ALL they have are empty accusations and absurd claims. that's the meme. and - we are effectively disarming them. consider them exposed.
Please do not vote Peggy's post down
I would like everyone to be able to read her post.
Thanks
Mirror:http://www.911researchers.com/node/260#comments
Polished Mirror versions, Cleaned up and Edited
As if people couldn't open the link anyway if they wanted to.
)
You're funny.
Will you grant permission to me too? To use my own eyes?
I find that I'm unable to
I find that I'm unable to view comments that have been voted down when I'm logged in. I don't know why that is, but it is a hassle to have to log off and find the thread again in order to view comments that have been voted down. Probably it's my browser?
i had the same exact problem
i had the same exact problem at one point. do you have any viruses on your computer? i cleaned my computer and that seemed to work for me.
That's why I posted it all elsewhere
*
I find it's the same no
I find it's the same no matter what computer I'm on, including an Apple computer which, as I understand it, is less likely to be infected by viruses.
Yes, please leave Peggy's post unhidden
Particularly the part in italics below.
I don't have time to go through the arguments here so I can't support Peggy on the substantive points, and I don't know and don't care about the pissing match going on here, but I think Peggy makes an important philosophical point here. I took out John's name because I think her point is more generally applicable, and added how I see it in brackets:
That is one lesson for us. The people who believed the goverment's story about the safety of the dust are many of them, paying with their lives. So are we to believe people who tell us what we are seeing. Rather than the evidence of our own sight, our own logic and our own eyes?
The public believes the whole fantasy. Why should our logic bow before politics, before "what everyone knows" or before [Nico Haupt]?
You have tried to convince me that what my lying eyes tell me I am seeing is not the case, but that instead I should believe what i am *told* I am seeing.
That is not happening.
I wrote something in the same vein a while back:
http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2006/12/face-it-were-all-kooks.html
I only skimmed this, but
I only skimmed this, but that picture was hillarious all on it's own!
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
nope
i clearly mentioned distance, proportion, angles and depth in my post. cameras will distort ALL of these things.
it is YOU who is lying and claiming that i am merely discussing distance.
it is YOU who is lying and claiming that i would not be able to see a plane strike the towers from 56th street (as if 5 miles is an insurmountable distance for the human eye).
it is YOU who has mocked the trauma my family suffered.
it is YOU who has come to this thread to defend someone who clearly is disrupting and attacking this community with personalized attacks and allegations - including the use of obscene imagery and swastikas in churches.
you should be very proud of yourself
That would be "church," John
Singular. Like Nico. Singular. One person. Not "organized." And you made your point about the swastikas and feces. All you' have left is "personalized attacks and allegations" that our disrupting this community by wasting time on a non-issue, Nico Haupt. If you don't like him, ignore him. What happened -- your lawyer teach you some First Amendment and anti-harassment law?
we'll see
what lessons my lawyer will teach.
Yes, and if he advises you to file
you'll see what conclusions a judge reaches.
Look Again/The Helicopter shot is from a more elevated position
This is the silliest crap. On first listen it sounds like Nico Haupt is demented but he's got all these little helpers.
no - actually the feces and swastikas created the scandal
the cursing and disrupting caused the scandal
not Directed Energy Weapons. in fact - at one point Tom Foti was offering him a slot on a Sunday to present his evidence. This was not good enough for Haupt because HE WAS JUST THERE TO DISRUPT.
What the hell are you defending Margarite?
Well, well Peggy, Nico likes you
He certainly has high regard for you on his Ewing 2001 site.
So it's fitting that you slam John Albanese, since Nico does the same on his site, so that comes as no surprise to Me. I keep an eye on his site, just like He keeps an eye on this one.
Take it easy
Peggy just represents the pro-feces-pro-swastiaks-in-a church coalition.
Poor Nico is just a victim.
Actually I just realized,
Actually I just realized, what the hell is Nico doing swearing in a Church?
Its community outreach
Its a way of reaching out to the community and gaining the credibiliy of the movement.
Putting up feces is his way of demonstrating his sanity.
Shades of Morton Downey
In 1989, Downey was involved in an incident in which he claimed to have been attacked by neo-Nazis who painted a swastika on his face. Because police could not find evidence that the event actually took place, many did not believe it, feeling that it was just another controversial stunt.
Makes Me wonder if Nico got the idea from that...but who knows...Maybe some frustration about the no planes theory goin nowhere for him.
i remember that
Downey was desperate for attention - but drew the swastikas on his face in REVERSE because he was looking in a mirror when he did it. LOL
But seriously - Nico is just working from the same playbook as this:
In 1969 the FBI created a fake "Wanted" leaflet with photos of Jewish radicals Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Mark Rudd (of Students for a Democratic Society), and Paul Krassner. The four were separated by a large swastika, over the headline, "LAMPSHADES! LAMPSHADES! LAMPSHADES!" (The headline was a "joke." The Nazis were said to have made lampshades out of the bodies of Jewish victims.)
Like a lot of the FBI’s propaganda, this crap was supposed to be funny. That way, if the agents got caught, they could point out that the flyer was only facetiously calling for the elimination of Jewish leaders–they were "just kidding."
Exposed - Haupt now claims his swastika attack on this church was simply SATIRE.
same playbook.
Holy crap! I almost forgot about that one!
Isn't it just so damn disgusting as to the kind of sadistic BS these people can come up with? When a person finds out things such as this, it just drops the facade (like I had before 9/11) of government as trustworthy. It shows just what kind of people are at work here, and solidifying My belief that they have no qualms or conscience toward doing 9/11without even blinking an eye.
Man, I miss Rudd and Hoffman. But goes to show ya that Nico is trying to disrupt the movement. He has definatly shown his hand. Satire?!! Give me a break. he's more like those who railroaded James Trafficant.
Organized disruption?
Looks like one guy to me. Aren't you all overreacting just a bit?
Like I said on SLC:
Like I said at SLC:
Urantia--WHO CARES?!?
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
how long until someone
how long until someone FINALLY beats the shit out of Nico? i cant believe nobody rushed him, i know its a church and all but damn........
You are advocating violence
on a blog where John Albanese whines about being a victim. There are non-violent ways to deal with people you disagree with.
are you gonna cry about it?
are you gonna cry about it? this is about the 4th time you have said the EXACT SAME THING on this blog about "advocating viloence". seriously, stop wasting peoples time. you are easily one of the most annoying people here. dont worry, im not gonna hit you ya little bitch. now go ahead and whine some more.
I like you Chris, I really do, but...
I gave Albanese grief over something similar:
"dont worry, im not gonna hit you ya little bitch."
Could we at least WAIT UNTIL the wankers attack us FIRST, before insulting the twit? Then I'll back you up all the way. Let's not turn into those we hate--no I don't mean the neo-cons--I mean the JREF forum!
Otherwise, I agree with the rest of your post--it's almost like he's trying to build a case for 911Blogger advocating violence. Someone--I won't say who--has urged tolerance of Ningen, for reasons I basically agree with, but know I'm watching him.
Hope you're listening, Ning.--I see you post somewhere else about how 911Blogger members are violent--based on your deliberate obtuse "mis-observations", you WILL hear about it.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
in fairness i said i WASNT gonna hit him.....
no, your absolutely right though, and i usually try not to engage obvious agitators like him but i guess i slipped up. i would be interested to know who told you we should tolerate Ningen for the time being though. or at least why? you are dead on though, like Mark Roberts he seems to be trying to provoke statements of intended violence. and for the record, i didnt say i was gonna beat the shit out of Nico, i just said im surprised someone hasnt yet. :)
You realize that the only
You realize that the only people who come to this site telling someone that "they are being misled or decieved" are hard core dis-info trolls?
So--I'm really going out on a limb here--giving you far TOO much benefit of the doubt(God knows you don't deserve it at this point)--if you're NOT a disinfo troll, PLEASE don't sound like one by taking on such a patronizing tone.
I might have to dust off the "TROLL ALERT" signs if this goes on...
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
how long have you been here?
in how many ways is this statement wrong? first i'll start with Albanese. i respect EGLS and i respect anyone who takes time/money/energy out of their lives for 9/11 activism. including John. that said, me and Albanese have clashed in the past and may clash again. im not going to start anything here right now and get specific but IF you had a history here you would know that Mr. Albanese is not leading me around by the nose, not even close. know whats really going on before saying bullshit like that ok? Ningen, i feel for you, you're old(cute huh?), you think you know whats going on, and you obviously have an agenda here. care to share what it really is? finally, leave me alone. i'll leave you alone. honest people can do this. for instance me and Albanese or other people i may have had disagreements with here before are capable(for the most part) of coexisting without starting shit with each other. i find that shils cant really help themselves though. now lets see what you do.
Nice one. ;-) Impeachment.
Nice one. ;-)
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
didnt think i could be that
didnt think i could be that rational huh? ;)
Official Lies
I find you suspect for 4 reasons:
1 - you show up on a board where CLEARLY Nico Haupt is documented as crossing the line of common decency - posting feces and swastikas in a church - cursing and hurling obscenities - and you appear to be picking fights with the posters here.
2 - Instead of dealing with the subject at hand you simply engage in an ad hominum attack - calling me a liar - without specifically stating exactly WHAT the basis of your claim is.
3 - You appear to be baiting people - to force this discussion board to digress into cross accusations. You are accusing people of advocating violence. You are intentionally attempting to put people on the defensive.
4 - you keep, concidentally, advocating the no-planes theory while you are engaging in this nonsense.
I think your motivations are transparent.
I did understand what you
I did understand what you meant re: Nico--unlike a certain person around here--Oh, look! He's posted below you! Probably something irritating and obtuse. I'll read it later.
Anyhoo, while I can't reveal the person--I'll leave that up to them--the reason was he tends to be reasonably clear that while he does NOT believe in hologram planes, he IS willing to consider tampered footage, and , frankly, so am I --with all the parenthetical qualifications, of course.
I remember when digital touching up was new, and was being used where, frankly I thought it had no business being used--reporting the news. For instance, there was this picture of a runner who'd fallen who was being helped by someone carring a walkie-talkie. But the way this person was bent down to examine the athlete made her look as if she had an antenna sticking out of her knee or shoulder. So, for the magazine cover--brush! The digital people made it disapear.
Now, IMHO, if it's news, I don't care how stupid it makes people look--you DO NOT tamper with the image. Anyway, it would not surprise me at all if the images of the planes hitting the towers were tampered with JUST ENOUGH to hide any small inconsistancies--like the plane markings, or explosions where it entered the building.(I just mean timed explosions IN THE BUILDING to help it enter easily--NOT a pod)
That said, Ningen is rapidly wearing out his welcome--and he didn't have much to start with. >:(
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
oh, well to be honest, my
oh, well to be honest, my problem with him isnt his belief that footage could have been tampered with, or even the fact that he believes in full on tv fakery. its really just his tone and his general trollishness. about tv fakery, i dont believe in the no plane stuff for one second but like you i dont completely outrule some kind of manipulation. you have to remember how many witnesses saw a cargo plane afterall. not something to lead with but certaintly something to think about.
"not something to lead with
"not something to lead with but certaintly something to think about."
That's an excellent way to frame the issues many of us disagree on; for instance "what hit the Pentagon?" is not a leader. Think about it--hell, disagree about it--but focus on "why did ANYTHING hit the Pentagon?"
More obvious examples are *cough* space beams. Even if true, it IS NOT something to lead with IF WE WANT TO BE EFFECTIVE.
Reguarding Ninny--okay, that was bad--Ningen, I hadn't actually seen how bad he could get until now--guess I wasn't reading those threads. *sigh*
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
I am the person who urged tolerance for Ningen
and I still do. Ningen, you could be less tetchy and probably get along better with people here -- not that you've asked for my advice.
Ningen strikes me as a serious hard-ass independent thinker who has come to conclusions with which I disagree, but he plays fair as far as the scientific method is concerned, and that is something I value very highly. He has also been treated pretty abusively here by people who just don't want to hear about unpopular theories at all, ever, even from someone who could debate the ideas on their merits, which is something the trolls don't do.
I'm going to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread: the obvious disruptors are the easy ones to spot and deal with (not that NYTruth dealt with Nico.) It's the facilitators, the hypers, the promoters and the distractors who are a much more serious problem. The clowns don't run the circus.
So she comes out of the tolerance closet...;-)
You're right about the clowns not running the circus. But now I have something personal with THIS clown--I don't take kindly to my words being deliberately distorted.
So, I won't rate him down automatuically, but Ningen needs to pull his act together. Because right now he SOUNDS like a handful of people who can sound reasonable most of the time--but then without warning start targeting people and try to start fights.
A short, and incomprehensive list follows; can you spot the handles?
mi_ter_u_
B_A_
To make this list not only do you have to be purposefully obtuse, but you also have to be resistant to all forms of truce/"agreeing to disagree". And you USUALLY sound reasonable--until you engage your target.
MY tolerance is wearing thin...
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
What specifically did I say, Jenny?
You're watching me? Then don't quote me generally. I don't think 911 Blogger members in general are violent. If I said that, I retract it. I don't think I said that.
The bottom line of all this silly debate is that you all disagree with Nico on the planes issue, and think he is disinfo for pushing it. He thinks this site is disinfo for resisting it. I think both sides are taking the wrong approach, and am trying to straddle both communities and return the debate to the merits.
Since no planes is reality, which is all that really matters, I come down much more on Nico's side.
I also think that any suspicion that applies to Nico's style should apply equally to John's style - overreaction to Nico's actions diverts attention from substance. For all I know, John Albanese/Les Jamieson and Nico Haupt/Rick Seigel are disinfo tag teams.
I also prefer Nico's libertarian style, eccentric and offensive though it may be, to the authoritarian style of you, who wants to use force to stifle dissent, and John Albanese, who invokes his perverted ideas of the law to call for suppression of free speech.
John called me disinfo who should be tried for war crimes for advocating an idea he disagrees with, but cannot logically refute. I recall characterizing that as violent - is that what you meant?
That reading comprehension, again...
IF! IF! IF! IF! IF I catch you saying shite about "violent " 911Bloggers, whom you are gratuitously baiting, THEN you'll hear about it.
So, IF/THEN logical statements are giving you trouble as well, are they?
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
For clairity, because God
For clairity, because God knows you need it:
"(IF)I see you post somewhere else about how 911Blogger members are violent--based on your deliberate obtuse "mis-observations", (THEN)you WILL hear about it."
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Nope
"The bottom line of all this silly debate is that you all disagree with Nico on the planes issue, and think he is disinfo for pushing it."
Nope. But nice try.
The issue is the disruption. St Marks church has now withdrawn its open invitation to NY911Truth meetings. Nico Haupt DIRECTLY attacks members of this community - calling us war criminals - posting images with feces and swastkis online - defiling a church with these images - screaming FUCK at the top of his lungs calling people obscenities and insults - posting LIES about people - attacking virtually EVERY legitimate researcher in this movement with smears and accusations - David Ray Griffin - Robert Bowman - 911Blogger - David Kubiak - 911Truth.or - Steven Jones.
Anyone with HALF a brain is able to see that Nico Haupt was a major disruptor at this event - as he has been over and over again at similar events.
Sorry - but your attempts to derail this issue with the no-planes theory is pretty weak. laughable actually.
this is from your
this is from your profile:I've been trying to figure out 9/11 since November 2001, and have followed a lot of dead-end trails, some of which were great work for their time.
what the hell does that even mean?
I was talking about Jared Israel's work on the stand down
That was great work at the time, but it led to the dead end of planes and LIHOP.
Now you are not advocating violence, you are just being belligerent.
I was also talking about Kyle Hence
and Paul Thompson, for the same reasons.
What is it about me that annoys you?
its hard to explain. leave
its hard to explain. leave me alone please.
This is Rick Siegel
Thanks for your questions
"Re point 1 -- It was clearly the LaRouchie who moved to attack Mr Haupt. Does Albanese support LaRouche cultists physically attacking 9/11 researchers?"
No - i advocate St Marks as a peaceful open forum where people can share ideas without being insulted and verbally assualted by Mr. Haupt. Haupt can clearly be seen screaming into this man's face. The man reacted. I do not know this man - nor do I care what he believes. He has a right to sit in a church and not be verbally assaulted.
"Re points 6&7 -- Mr Haupt never mentioned Reynolds, or "9/11 Eyewitness" in either the "tirade" nor the private interview later. Nor did he mention "space beams" -- only "exotic weaponry.""
Space Beams is the term Judy Woods herself uses in the paper Haupt references. Semantics. Further - Mr. Haupt's website shares an IP address with your own - so it is clear that you are supporting Mr. Haupt's efforts. I will need to review this tape again - and i apologize if i incorrectly attribute his comments - BUT - CLEARLY by providing Mr. Haupt with a website you are advocating and supporting these attacks upon our community.
"Wood, Fetzer, Bowman, Griffin and Floum were discussed only in the private interview after, not during the "tirade.""
This "private interview" consisted of Haupt screaming at the top of his lungs. Furthermore - his REFERENCES to these individuals were on full display - taped to the wall of a church - with excrement and swastikas included. We have the original copies in our possession.
"Hasn't Albanese ranted that the "Criminal Politics" magazine was handed out by "COINTELPRO agents"? Since Jamieson handed it out, doesn't Albanese agree with Mr Haupt that Jamieson is an agent?"
No. This discussion is about the intentional disruption of a church meeting by Mr. Haupt - not Mr. Jamieson. Attempts to shift attention, accusations and blame to Mr. Jamieson does not negate the actions of Mr. Haupt in assaulting this community with slanderous and obscene literature. The tape speaks for itself in this regard.
"Finally -- How disruptive, really, was a 15-minute debate on Urantia? Don't these weekly meetings typically go on and on for 5 or 6 hours? Was this debate really less enlightening than Mr. Urantia's deep insights on the nature of the federal government?"
Very disruptive. The church has now withdrawn the space for future 911 meetings. The live play that was taking place on the 2nd floor, with an audience, was disrupted as well. There were complaints. Is this YOUR church? Was this YOUR meeting? May i ask what business this is of YOURS?
Why would you seek to defend the actions of Mr. Haupt? If placing swastikas and feces on the wall of a church is NOT something this community should condemn - then what is?
Its called self defense
A simple review of Mr. Siegel's website reveals his attacks upon this community - including sharing an IP address with the person depicted in this video. your attempts to minimize the disruptions of our meetings, message boards - and the defilement of our church with images of feces and swastikas is telling.
Its funny that you would be calling for "fair play" when our churches are defiled and our members attacked.
Nico and the no-planer sideshow
I think the main objective of these people is simply distraction, frustration, and wasting our time. Nico should have been banned from the church meetings a long time ago. Why wasn't he? Also, if you think this is the extent of the infiltration campaign, think again. Real spies and double agents are trained not to be obvious and they are trained well. Imagine the spies who infiltrated communist Russia or Cuba--these guys went to language schools, developed fake personalities over many years, and learned to talk the talk so well that nobody could tell the difference. If you think Nico Haupt is the best thing they have to throw at us, you're sadly mistaken.
If you've got any doubts about the sophistication of modern espionage, please read this case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby
I think the best strategy is to marginalize and ignore these kooks...and then go about our business in a more focused manner, always keeping an eye out for more subtle forms of sabotage.
I would venture to say that "THEY" want us staring in Nico's direction and wasting our time talking about the antics of the hologram/fakery/beam clowns. In the meantime, we are derailed from our primary mission of spreading the truth and we will be less likely to notice the more advanced subterfuge.
As I've said before, paranoia is not the answer; rock-solid critical thinking, devoid of naivete is.
As others have pointed out, the real question is how NY911 has become such a mess...
International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org
Excellent insight.
"I think the best strategy is to marginalize and ignore these kooks...and then go about our business in a more focused manner, always keeping an eye out for more subtle forms of sabotage.
I would venture to say that "THEY" want us staring in Nico's direction and wasting our time talking about the antics of the hologram/fakery/beam clowns. In the meantime, we are derailed from our primary mission of spreading the truth and we will be less likely to notice the more advanced subterfuge."
CLEARLY
no one cares to discuss Nico's research here.
The issue is his defilement of a church and attacks upon this community with feces and swastikas.
sure - you being such a reasonable guy - can understand that we do not care to dignify this person with debates wbout his research.
sure - you being such a reasonable guy cannot be defending the actions of someone who shows up at a meeting at a church and puts up pictures of feces and swastikas on the wall
sure you understand that the church withdrew it support for the meetings and the space has been lost.
surely you understand that the liveplay upstairs was disrupted.
surely you understand this is disturbing the peace.
so why would you seek to discuss this person "research" here? wht would anyone CARE to dignify your remarks with a response?
Do you support Nico's actions in the church? Why do you refer to him in sympathetic terms, to an audience of people who are being victimized by his actions? why would we care to hear it?
its a two front war
ignoring them does not work since they are misrepresenting us in the media, and using bullying tactics to usurp our resources
so - we fight on two fronts.
So is this the begining of the fighting us stage?
The idiots in the disruption movement are showing themselves now? Such as herr Nico
what did i say?
"marginalize and ignore"
International Truth Movement
http://www.truthmove.org