The Walmart Intercom idea is not that bad, but all I see for the first 2 minutes in the video are a couple of punk kids.
We'll never know if any of these intercom comments make any difference or not, but this video tells people that "9/11 Truthers" are bored youth, not that "9/11 Truthers" have a good message.
Good idea but heavy on the attitude........we have to reach out without pissing people off.
We also need the cops on our side and even though there is a bad element amoung them we find during street actions them mostly helpful and receptive to our ideas, more that the average person.
Thanks and keep getting out there!
Regards John
WE GOT TO TAKE THE POWER BACK!... rage against the machine!!
... can you give me one good reason why this is on the front page?
While for instance some of Aidan's highly relevant posts gets shuffled away on the blog page?
A few days ago you were talking about how you want to broaden the site to include things like the JFK, RFK, MLK assassinations. I'm all for that, it's part of the big picture.
But the last thing this movement needs is to be associated with this kind of "truth action". It will get us nowhere. In fact, it's a step backwards. The next time the people who were at the wal-mart hear someone express scepticism about the official story, they will immediatly dismiss it. Even if they're approached in a much better way. Hey, maybe even if they would meet David Ray Griffin.
This kind of narrow minded stunt is making it so much harder for the rest of us. I don't have any delusion that this kind of thing will ever stop, but I have hope that this site will stop promoting it. What do you say, Rep?
MOST of Aidan Monaghan's get the front page slot, so I don't know what you are talking about, there.
Feel free to critique the action, hopefully the guys who made it will see the criticism, and consider their approach. There, that's one good reason why this is on the front page.
Also post your critique to the YouTube comments section.
from hearing two short messages on an intercom that they will never want to hear anything about 911 in
the future. This is ridiculous. People are all different. Many will not mind. Some may be turned away, others will catch on.
This was a non agressive action, they did't shout into the intercom or used foul or insulting language.
Just spread the truth!
Maybe someone is able to do this with a national broadcast?! Just an idea..
(remember, it is standing up for human rights!)
A grenade dangling from the rearview mirror....! Now that feeds right into the disinformation Geraldo spews out about truthers possibliy behind the New York city recruitment center bombing. Someone please educate those guys that this is serious, and good PR is not just smart, but essential. Give the impression the truth movement is a bunch of anarchists, or espouse even the least bit of violence, and we may well all get to meet one another personally in prison somewhere.
the plastic grenade was a mistake,my friend the driver is an ex military and now a street pastor and it is just a plastic grenade , that was a bad mistake but we will learn with our mistakes.
For now , I'm respectfully backing off on this debate and have removed most of my comments from 911blogger on this Walmart/Smith Falls issue...
I now realize I'm unqualified to comment as I don't have enough knowledge nor understanding about terms psyops and COINTELPRO. I do understand disruptor's infiltrating worthy groups for what ever gains or goals they have...but I'm seeing I'm way out of my league on this debate.
The positive to this You-tube/Smith Falls has inspired national attention and I'm thrilled these kind of questionable actions have cleared a path to the forefront in debate with such well respected people like Kevin Barrett, Peter Dale Scott, Robin Hordon, Richard Gage, Dr Bowman and Wayne Prante and so forth...So many have the success and integrity of the 911 truth movement at heart and in mind to continue growing on a positive path.
These disruptions at political rallies and walmart antics have long concerned me about the direction the 911 truth movement was heading before. I could not understand why we needed to adopt such childish or disruptive behavior when for the first several years of the movement it had forged forward with-out ever resorting to such actions..
I believe if we didn't take responsibility to confront and criticize these actions from with-in , then the future of this vitally important movement would have been put in serious doubt. Hey that's just me , my gut feeling and opinion from a guy who considers himself an apprentice in learning mode. I also get juiced up when I see people exploit others in the name of 911 truth... for a laugh or attention!
Exploited Walmart, Military and Security people included...
I don't have any apologies to make about my criticisms of Walmart actions, we are change disruptions at political rallies and I don't plan remaining silent when I see the integrity of this 911 truth movement threatened...
But again thats just me...
It would be impossible for me, [a hard advocate of Civil Informationing over confrontational approaches], to create a better example of the subtle "product placement" of suggestive violent behaviors as seen in this video.
I ask one and all again...is this the type of conduct and approach that the 9/11 Truth Movement should condone?
And I will boldly make a point that I have already predicted, the advent of WAC and it being a front for the Ron Paul Experiment was NOT around when the 9/11TM was gaining ground in the public's view, ie: when the behavior was civil in public and a bit controversial in the locker room. But the confrontational behavior is out there now.
The strength of the 9/11TM was, and STILL IS, in its refusal to come under one umbrella and to depend upon the uniqueness and individuality of all of us truthers. There was no major umbrella organization of the 9/11 Truth Movement...for a reason. Because COINTELPRO can gain control of the few leaders atop any organization and wreak havoc.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is a fine example of what happens when adults do not speak up to the kids and just say NO to such bad behaviors.
And to me, the genade dangling from the rear view mirror is absolutely CLASSIC cointelpro "product and attitude" placement as it subtly suggests that violence is next.
BTW...I just met a hard Ron Paul fellow who attended a huge Ron Paul meeting in Seattle and he offered to me that he was concerned that violence may soon break out as the Ron Paul experiment takes a nose dive.
And in finishing...a note that such cointelpro "product placement" works...only one comment about the grenade! To those who have seen this video and NOT commented upon the grenade "visual", you are either with that idea, or you have been hacked without you even knowing it. The ONLY response to this should be abject and total rejection.
Robin, you make an excellent argument. You've convinced me this video is a perfect example on how the MSM will use simple observations to make the association. You're right in finding fault with any association to violence. MSM has already attempted to scapegoat the movement. How fall is Smith Falls from New York?
9/11 Truth has to work on a more mature message. I personally forgive these young men for any error in the execution of their effort. Their hearts are in the right place
I'm sick of this namby pamby pussy footing around as long as your not shooting anyone, all non-violent TRUTH ACTION is GOOD TRUTH ACTION!
As for the "grenade" dangling in your car, I say remove it, and then shove it into the backsides of some of the commentators on 9/11 blogger after pulling the pin.
In one sentence you praise all non-violent truth action, and in the next you advocate violence against 911 blogger "commentators..." So which is it? Are you a troll, or just confused?
"Eco-terrorists" are now sitting in jail for what was taken as violent action against corporate greed and environmental degradation. Upstate some radical environmentalists trashed some buildings and the offices of a developement company proposing a very controversial project around Moosehead Lake in Greenville, Maine. They had the book thrown at them for the damage they caused, although no one was hurt or even involved. If you think the truth movement can't be similarly labeled as "terrorists," you aren't much of a detective Sherlock.
The action at the walmart was not altogether wrong. It was creative if nothing else. Publishing the video with a grenade as the opening visual, and talking crap against the cops, is not going impress anyone with a lick of sense, and does nothing to further the call for truth about 9/11. In fact it hurts the effort. It is ammunition for gainsayers and idiots looking to accuse and blame.
maybe think about losing the grenade, overall it's kind of guerilla warfare without any big crimminal risk so let's keep it in perspective, maybe a more professional script like walmart shoppers attention please for the next 50 customers there are free 911 mystery CD's in the video dept. Maybe they could be preplanted on the counter, or someone posing as a rep could give them to a counter person as free samples. Or maybe a person with a white shirt and blue apron handing out free samples in the store etc. I don't think we can say that operations like this have no value, maybe they just need to be done with greater care and professionalism. I myself was entertained and I thought the rat poison was a nice touch. We always need to estimate the downside and a operation done in this matter should always reflect peaceful activisim, and the criminal risks are perhaps impersonating a Walmart employee? Giving out free samples, soliciting without permission, I think the movement can live with these type of operations and tactics. Let' s face it these people had great intentions and we are all on the same side, up against a terrible machine that 's designed without respect for human lives, operated by people who make their own rules. Let's work smarter and harder to get out the truth, our victory will come with numbers, and brave, courageous, individuals. It took thousands of people in the streets and brave insiders like Daniel Ellsberg to stop the machine last time.
Agents and informers did not merely spy on political activists.
Their main purpose was to discredit and disrupt.
Their very presence served to undermine trust and scare
off potential supporters.
Walmart 911 Activists?
Cover blown!
Did I mention the comedy club was down the street boys?
the small plastic grenade was a huge mistake, WE DID'NT DO IT ON PURPOSE ,IT IS A PLASTIC GRENADE AND IT'S BEEN IN THE TRUCK FOR YEARS SO FOR US IT IS JUST THE ROUTINE, WE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT BUT WE WERE SO USE TO IT THAT WE DID'NT PAY ATTENTION . ANYWAYS GUYS WE ARE DEEPLY SORRY ABOUT THAT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY.
Guys - We appreciate the motive but we've got to find creative ways of spreading 9/11 truth that doesn't make us look foolish and also piss people off. Back to the drawing board....
The grenade is the first thing you see. I cannot see how that can be anything but done on purpose. So subtle yet IN YOUR FACE. I don't trust that action one litlte bit and it needs to go. I agree with the above post. It looks like nothing but a couple of punks out causing havoc. Why on earth would anyone take them seriously? I see nothing helpful here.
My response to an email from Peter Dale Scott suggesting that these guys are "provocateurs" or "crazies," like some he remembered from the 60s. Peter was responding to an email from Wayne Prante calling them "moronic." I have great respect for Peter and Wayne, but I think they're off-base here. Those interested in this debate can find plenty of archived shows devoted to it at http://www.mujca.com/airwaves.htm
-
I think calling these guys "moronic" or provocateurs or crazies is an overreaction, and perhaps a greater violation of civility than their action, which strikes me as harmless and humorous--though the plastic grenade, which appeals to MY dada-esque sense of humor, may be a mistake, since so many people these days have been brainwashed by the media into living in permanent fear.
I caught the 60s (when they finally made it to Wisconsin in the mid-70s) and half the fun was the edgy attitudes and behavior. By 60s standards this prank is not nearly outrageous enough to be interesting.
By far the most effective 60s activist was Abbie Hoffman, who made activism fun by appealing to young people's love of anti-authoritarian pranks and humorous socially disruptive behavior. (The reason most young people don't do activism is because it's boringly sanctimonious. Abbie and other envelope-pushers made it fun and exciting.)
The 9/11 truth movement, like its intended audience, includes different personality types. Some (including older people and many of Ken Jenkins' "sensitive" types) will find this kind of action scary, threatening, off-putting. Others (many younger people and many of Ken's "hardy" types) will find anything less in-your-face than this nauseatingly wimpy, given the outrageousness of 9/11 itself. I live in a rural blue-collar area, and a very common reaction I get from folks is "how could anybody possibly believe this and not immediately start a revolution? Either these truthers don't really believe what they're saying, or they're the most pathetic wimps on God's green earth."
A great many people, especially younger people, are attracted to anything that seems bold, rule-breaking, and un-wimpy...anything that breaks through the fear barrier. That's the key to the success of WeAreChange, who have done more to spread 9/11 truth awareness than anyone, precisely through dramatic push-the-envelope actions. Drama is conflict! Scenes without a conflictual, transgressive element are BO-RING and will never grab mass attention.
Those who don't like ANY kind of conflict or edginess in 9/11 activism have a right to their opinions and activities, but are not good critics of this kind of action. They're like people who hate jazz, responding to each new jazz record with "I hate it! This is terrible! Stop playing this stuff! We are Classical Instrument Activists, and all other forms of music come from provocateurs and crazies!"
A good critic would acknowledge the potential positive value of this kind of action, and then explain how it could have been more effective...by shortening the long "driving-around" introduction, getting rid of the hilarious but problematic plastic grenade, finding a funnier or softer way to use the "sheep" thing or else eliminating it, getting a much higher volume on the "attention Wal-Mart shoppers" announcement, trying for snappier dialogue, and so on.
The essence of civility is kindness and tolerance toward those who are fundamentally different from ourselves. I don't see the Activists-With-Attitude telling the Civil Info people that they're wimps, their activities are useless or counterproductive, etc. So while I'm sympathetic with some of the CIA people's ideas, I think the other side often gets more points for civility, despite the occasional mistakes and excesses.
Kevin, your points are well taken, much anticipated and appreciated.
We C.I. activists do NOT like to criticize or be negative use name calling etc, but we see the confrontations being pushed and promoted anywhere and everywhere while our attempts at reasonable debate and constructive and civil criticism (as well as promoting an alternative) are mostly ignored or receive nasty, knee jerk and immature responses.
Thus, admittedly, it has taken some un-civility on our part to get this debate going, most importantly having people think about what they are doing before the do it, and what the consequences might be for the movement - if any - and how best to avoid giving our enemies what they want.
We have noted that those who advocate and engage in confrontation and disruption do not like to be confronted. That is our whole point. And what does that tell us? It is worth considering. Note too, that we make a distinction between asking questions and confronting people or being disruptive. I would also submit, however, that there are legitimate targets and questionable targets. There are also times and places when it is appropriate and other times and places when it is bound to backfire and have opposite effect and work against us and our common goals.
This video has served to ignite a debate that is long overdue, IMHO. I am pleased that you Kevin, Peter Dale Scott, Richard Gage, Robin and others for their valuable input here.
In the meantime, i have received some words of apology from one of the guys in Smith Falls and offered regarding the grenade and some assurances that they will be more careful in the future. I have sent him my apologies as well for some of the comments I made, and sincerely hope that we can learn from each other, work together and move forward toward our common goals. I have also circulated this and will publish it.
In my public actions, you can be assured that I practice what I preach to the best of my abilities, as do others in our local group. Those of you who know me personally, know that to be true. We are being the change we want to see, and putting our best foot forward when in public.
if you people were around in 1773, I can just imagine what you would say
about the brave and honorable and valiant men who performed the Boston Tea Party
civil disobedience action and how you would bad-mouth them too:
"omg!!! WHAT are they doing??? this is the end.
and they dressed up as violent heathen savages too.
they have royally pissed off the King now.
we are doomed! doomed I say.
I'm all for independence and all that but let's not go overboard.
I hope they catch those bastards and draw and quarter them and
then hang them from the yard arm.
that will teach them and those like them!"
and if you were around in the 50's and 60's - I can imagine what you would say
about Rosa Parks and MLK Jr.:
"omg!!! WHAT are they doing??? why can't Rosa just go to the back of the bus?
it's not like they made her stand up or get off the bus.
the back of the bus isn't so bad.
and that reverend and all of his strong speaking and the marches and protests.
and they are causing all of that violence against themselves.
I'm all for freedoms and equality and all that but let's not go overboard.
that's all just a little too uppity for my tastes.
they should just calm down and not make waves or problems.
it's not like they are slaves still or aren't allowed to vote.
can't we all just get along?"
I am a nonviolent person so I hate it when people act or say things that
makes me wish someone would punch them in the head
to knock some sense into them.
I really hate it when that happens.
you are all poor patriots at best.
you shouldn't even be allowed to call yourselves Patriots.
you are probably just 'fair weather Patriots' and 'Sunday Patriots' and
'weekend Patriots' and 'shirt sleeve Patriots' the most of you.
get some cajones and intestinal fortitude and some intelligence and morals and bravery.
Spreading Truth?
The Walmart Intercom idea is not that bad, but all I see for the first 2 minutes in the video are a couple of punk kids.
We'll never know if any of these intercom comments make any difference or not, but this video tells people that "9/11 Truthers" are bored youth, not that "9/11 Truthers" have a good message.
Sheep? True, but not encouraging to the community!
Good idea but heavy on the attitude........we have to reach out without pissing people off.
We also need the cops on our side and even though there is a bad element amoung them we find during street actions them mostly helpful and receptive to our ideas, more that the average person.
Thanks and keep getting out there!
Regards John
WE GOT TO TAKE THE POWER BACK!... rage against the machine!!
I like 9/11: Press For Truth
Paul Thompson can win over everybody and their Grandma.
Perhaps they should have said, "Watch 9/11 Press for Truth" when they were penetrating the minds of all those WalMart shoppers.
They would LIKE Paul Thompson, I'm sure of it.
And this is "HELPING" our
And this is "HELPING" our cause?
Who woke up? How many more are really annoyed at us now or think that we are ALL low grade morons?
But, heh, i'll bet AJ will give you a big mention ... woohoo eh!
- Fraser Valley 9/11 Truth http://www.FV911Truth.org
- 9/11 Civil Information Blog http://911civilinfo.blogspot.com
A bit confused here. Reprehensor...
... can you give me one good reason why this is on the front page?
While for instance some of Aidan's highly relevant posts gets shuffled away on the blog page?
A few days ago you were talking about how you want to broaden the site to include things like the JFK, RFK, MLK assassinations. I'm all for that, it's part of the big picture.
But the last thing this movement needs is to be associated with this kind of "truth action". It will get us nowhere. In fact, it's a step backwards. The next time the people who were at the wal-mart hear someone express scepticism about the official story, they will immediatly dismiss it. Even if they're approached in a much better way. Hey, maybe even if they would meet David Ray Griffin.
This kind of narrow minded stunt is making it so much harder for the rest of us. I don't have any delusion that this kind of thing will ever stop, but I have hope that this site will stop promoting it. What do you say, Rep?
Uh...
MOST of Aidan Monaghan's get the front page slot, so I don't know what you are talking about, there.
Feel free to critique the action, hopefully the guys who made it will see the criticism, and consider their approach. There, that's one good reason why this is on the front page.
Also post your critique to the YouTube comments section.
I don't think that people get so pissed of
from hearing two short messages on an intercom that they will never want to hear anything about 911 in
the future. This is ridiculous. People are all different. Many will not mind. Some may be turned away, others will catch on.
This was a non agressive action, they did't shout into the intercom or used foul or insulting language.
Just spread the truth!
Maybe someone is able to do this with a national broadcast?! Just an idea..
(remember, it is standing up for human rights!)
A grenade!
A grenade dangling from the rearview mirror....! Now that feeds right into the disinformation Geraldo spews out about truthers possibliy behind the New York city recruitment center bombing. Someone please educate those guys that this is serious, and good PR is not just smart, but essential. Give the impression the truth movement is a bunch of anarchists, or espouse even the least bit of violence, and we may well all get to meet one another personally in prison somewhere.
Didn't notice but yes, there it is
in the first second of the clip! But still, it's not a real one.
And if it were a teletubby, people would still complain, I'm shure.
i'm the man in the video
the plastic grenade was a mistake,my friend the driver is an ex military and now a street pastor and it is just a plastic grenade , that was a bad mistake but we will learn with our mistakes.
Re comment
For now , I'm respectfully backing off on this debate and have removed most of my comments from 911blogger on this Walmart/Smith Falls issue...
I now realize I'm unqualified to comment as I don't have enough knowledge nor understanding about terms psyops and COINTELPRO. I do understand disruptor's infiltrating worthy groups for what ever gains or goals they have...but I'm seeing I'm way out of my league on this debate.
The positive to this You-tube/Smith Falls has inspired national attention and I'm thrilled these kind of questionable actions have cleared a path to the forefront in debate with such well respected people like Kevin Barrett, Peter Dale Scott, Robin Hordon, Richard Gage, Dr Bowman and Wayne Prante and so forth...So many have the success and integrity of the 911 truth movement at heart and in mind to continue growing on a positive path.
These disruptions at political rallies and walmart antics have long concerned me about the direction the 911 truth movement was heading before. I could not understand why we needed to adopt such childish or disruptive behavior when for the first several years of the movement it had forged forward with-out ever resorting to such actions..
I believe if we didn't take responsibility to confront and criticize these actions from with-in , then the future of this vitally important movement would have been put in serious doubt. Hey that's just me , my gut feeling and opinion from a guy who considers himself an apprentice in learning mode. I also get juiced up when I see people exploit others in the name of 911 truth... for a laugh or attention!
Exploited Walmart, Military and Security people included...
I don't have any apologies to make about my criticisms of Walmart actions, we are change disruptions at political rallies and I don't plan remaining silent when I see the integrity of this 911 truth movement threatened...
But again thats just me...
For now I will listen and learn.
cointelpro product placement...a GRENADE
Robin Hordon
It would be impossible for me, [a hard advocate of Civil Informationing over confrontational approaches], to create a better example of the subtle "product placement" of suggestive violent behaviors as seen in this video.
I ask one and all again...is this the type of conduct and approach that the 9/11 Truth Movement should condone?
And I will boldly make a point that I have already predicted, the advent of WAC and it being a front for the Ron Paul Experiment was NOT around when the 9/11TM was gaining ground in the public's view, ie: when the behavior was civil in public and a bit controversial in the locker room. But the confrontational behavior is out there now.
The strength of the 9/11TM was, and STILL IS, in its refusal to come under one umbrella and to depend upon the uniqueness and individuality of all of us truthers. There was no major umbrella organization of the 9/11 Truth Movement...for a reason. Because COINTELPRO can gain control of the few leaders atop any organization and wreak havoc.
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is a fine example of what happens when adults do not speak up to the kids and just say NO to such bad behaviors.
And to me, the genade dangling from the rear view mirror is absolutely CLASSIC cointelpro "product and attitude" placement as it subtly suggests that violence is next.
BTW...I just met a hard Ron Paul fellow who attended a huge Ron Paul meeting in Seattle and he offered to me that he was concerned that violence may soon break out as the Ron Paul experiment takes a nose dive.
And in finishing...a note that such cointelpro "product placement" works...only one comment about the grenade! To those who have seen this video and NOT commented upon the grenade "visual", you are either with that idea, or you have been hacked without you even knowing it. The ONLY response to this should be abject and total rejection.
PLEASE reject this entire approach.
Robin Hordon
Your points are excellent
Robin, you make an excellent argument. You've convinced me this video is a perfect example on how the MSM will use simple observations to make the association. You're right in finding fault with any association to violence. MSM has already attempted to scapegoat the movement. How fall is Smith Falls from New York?
9/11 Truth has to work on a more mature message. I personally forgive these young men for any error in the execution of their effort. Their hearts are in the right place
...don't believe them!
Good for you guys, GOOD! I'm
Good for you guys, GOOD!
I'm sick of this namby pamby pussy footing around as long as your not shooting anyone, all non-violent TRUTH ACTION is GOOD TRUTH ACTION!
As for the "grenade" dangling in your car, I say remove it, and then shove it into the backsides of some of the commentators on 9/11 blogger after pulling the pin.
which is it?
In one sentence you praise all non-violent truth action, and in the next you advocate violence against 911 blogger "commentators..." So which is it? Are you a troll, or just confused?
"Eco-terrorists" are now sitting in jail for what was taken as violent action against corporate greed and environmental degradation. Upstate some radical environmentalists trashed some buildings and the offices of a developement company proposing a very controversial project around Moosehead Lake in Greenville, Maine. They had the book thrown at them for the damage they caused, although no one was hurt or even involved. If you think the truth movement can't be similarly labeled as "terrorists," you aren't much of a detective Sherlock.
The action at the walmart was not altogether wrong. It was creative if nothing else. Publishing the video with a grenade as the opening visual, and talking crap against the cops, is not going impress anyone with a lick of sense, and does nothing to further the call for truth about 9/11. In fact it hurts the effort. It is ammunition for gainsayers and idiots looking to accuse and blame.
smart walmart
maybe think about losing the grenade, overall it's kind of guerilla warfare without any big crimminal risk so let's keep it in perspective, maybe a more professional script like walmart shoppers attention please for the next 50 customers there are free 911 mystery CD's in the video dept. Maybe they could be preplanted on the counter, or someone posing as a rep could give them to a counter person as free samples. Or maybe a person with a white shirt and blue apron handing out free samples in the store etc. I don't think we can say that operations like this have no value, maybe they just need to be done with greater care and professionalism. I myself was entertained and I thought the rat poison was a nice touch. We always need to estimate the downside and a operation done in this matter should always reflect peaceful activisim, and the criminal risks are perhaps impersonating a Walmart employee? Giving out free samples, soliciting without permission, I think the movement can live with these type of operations and tactics. Let' s face it these people had great intentions and we are all on the same side, up against a terrible machine that 's designed without respect for human lives, operated by people who make their own rules. Let's work smarter and harder to get out the truth, our victory will come with numbers, and brave, courageous, individuals. It took thousands of people in the streets and brave insiders like Daniel Ellsberg to stop the machine last time.
Yea this guy was spitting
Yea this guy was spitting out the window and acting like a bit of a slob, not cool in my opinion.
Good action, bad grenade
Russ Hallberg
Good truth action, but what's the grenade doing there? HR 1955 folks would have a field day with that one.
They could also reach folks with a "9/11 INSIDE JOB" banner in the rear window.
COINTELPRO
Agents and informers did not merely spy on political activists.
Their main purpose was to discredit and disrupt.
Their very presence served to undermine trust and scare
off potential supporters.
Walmart 911 Activists?
Cover blown!
Did I mention the comedy club was down the street boys?
I'm the french canadian in the video
the small plastic grenade was a huge mistake, WE DID'NT DO IT ON PURPOSE ,IT IS A PLASTIC GRENADE AND IT'S BEEN IN THE TRUCK FOR YEARS SO FOR US IT IS JUST THE ROUTINE, WE SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT BUT WE WERE SO USE TO IT THAT WE DID'NT PAY ATTENTION . ANYWAYS GUYS WE ARE DEEPLY SORRY ABOUT THAT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO SAY.
Back to the drawing board...
Guys - We appreciate the motive but we've got to find creative ways of spreading 9/11 truth that doesn't make us look foolish and also piss people off. Back to the drawing board....
Richard Gage, AIA, Architect
How Could Anyone Miss It?
The grenade is the first thing you see. I cannot see how that can be anything but done on purpose. So subtle yet IN YOUR FACE. I don't trust that action one litlte bit and it needs to go. I agree with the above post. It looks like nothing but a couple of punks out causing havoc. Why on earth would anyone take them seriously? I see nothing helpful here.
Back to the drawing board indeed.
Civility Is in the Eye of the Beholder
My response to an email from Peter Dale Scott suggesting that these guys are "provocateurs" or "crazies," like some he remembered from the 60s. Peter was responding to an email from Wayne Prante calling them "moronic." I have great respect for Peter and Wayne, but I think they're off-base here. Those interested in this debate can find plenty of archived shows devoted to it at http://www.mujca.com/airwaves.htm
-
I think calling these guys "moronic" or provocateurs or crazies is an overreaction, and perhaps a greater violation of civility than their action, which strikes me as harmless and humorous--though the plastic grenade, which appeals to MY dada-esque sense of humor, may be a mistake, since so many people these days have been brainwashed by the media into living in permanent fear.
I caught the 60s (when they finally made it to Wisconsin in the mid-70s) and half the fun was the edgy attitudes and behavior. By 60s standards this prank is not nearly outrageous enough to be interesting.
By far the most effective 60s activist was Abbie Hoffman, who made activism fun by appealing to young people's love of anti-authoritarian pranks and humorous socially disruptive behavior. (The reason most young people don't do activism is because it's boringly sanctimonious. Abbie and other envelope-pushers made it fun and exciting.)
The 9/11 truth movement, like its intended audience, includes different personality types. Some (including older people and many of Ken Jenkins' "sensitive" types) will find this kind of action scary, threatening, off-putting. Others (many younger people and many of Ken's "hardy" types) will find anything less in-your-face than this nauseatingly wimpy, given the outrageousness of 9/11 itself. I live in a rural blue-collar area, and a very common reaction I get from folks is "how could anybody possibly believe this and not immediately start a revolution? Either these truthers don't really believe what they're saying, or they're the most pathetic wimps on God's green earth."
A great many people, especially younger people, are attracted to anything that seems bold, rule-breaking, and un-wimpy...anything that breaks through the fear barrier. That's the key to the success of WeAreChange, who have done more to spread 9/11 truth awareness than anyone, precisely through dramatic push-the-envelope actions. Drama is conflict! Scenes without a conflictual, transgressive element are BO-RING and will never grab mass attention.
Those who don't like ANY kind of conflict or edginess in 9/11 activism have a right to their opinions and activities, but are not good critics of this kind of action. They're like people who hate jazz, responding to each new jazz record with "I hate it! This is terrible! Stop playing this stuff! We are Classical Instrument Activists, and all other forms of music come from provocateurs and crazies!"
A good critic would acknowledge the potential positive value of this kind of action, and then explain how it could have been more effective...by shortening the long "driving-around" introduction, getting rid of the hilarious but problematic plastic grenade, finding a funnier or softer way to use the "sheep" thing or else eliminating it, getting a much higher volume on the "attention Wal-Mart shoppers" announcement, trying for snappier dialogue, and so on.
The essence of civility is kindness and tolerance toward those who are fundamentally different from ourselves. I don't see the Activists-With-Attitude telling the Civil Info people that they're wimps, their activities are useless or counterproductive, etc. So while I'm sympathetic with some of the CIA people's ideas, I think the other side often gets more points for civility, despite the occasional mistakes and excesses.
--Kevin Barrett
removed
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Kevin, your points are well
Kevin, your points are well taken, much anticipated and appreciated.
We C.I. activists do NOT like to criticize or be negative use name calling etc, but we see the confrontations being pushed and promoted anywhere and everywhere while our attempts at reasonable debate and constructive and civil criticism (as well as promoting an alternative) are mostly ignored or receive nasty, knee jerk and immature responses.
Thus, admittedly, it has taken some un-civility on our part to get this debate going, most importantly having people think about what they are doing before the do it, and what the consequences might be for the movement - if any - and how best to avoid giving our enemies what they want.
We have noted that those who advocate and engage in confrontation and disruption do not like to be confronted. That is our whole point. And what does that tell us? It is worth considering. Note too, that we make a distinction between asking questions and confronting people or being disruptive. I would also submit, however, that there are legitimate targets and questionable targets. There are also times and places when it is appropriate and other times and places when it is bound to backfire and have opposite effect and work against us and our common goals.
This video has served to ignite a debate that is long overdue, IMHO. I am pleased that you Kevin, Peter Dale Scott, Richard Gage, Robin and others for their valuable input here.
In the meantime, i have received some words of apology from one of the guys in Smith Falls and offered regarding the grenade and some assurances that they will be more careful in the future. I have sent him my apologies as well for some of the comments I made, and sincerely hope that we can learn from each other, work together and move forward toward our common goals. I have also circulated this and will publish it.
In my public actions, you can be assured that I practice what I preach to the best of my abilities, as do others in our local group. Those of you who know me personally, know that to be true. We are being the change we want to see, and putting our best foot forward when in public.
Wayne
- Fraser Valley 9/11 Truth http://www.FV911Truth.org
- 9/11 Civil Information Blog http://911civilinfo.blogspot.com
what is wrong with all you people???
if you people were around in 1773, I can just imagine what you would say
about the brave and honorable and valiant men who performed the Boston Tea Party
civil disobedience action and how you would bad-mouth them too:
"omg!!! WHAT are they doing??? this is the end.
and they dressed up as violent heathen savages too.
they have royally pissed off the King now.
we are doomed! doomed I say.
I'm all for independence and all that but let's not go overboard.
I hope they catch those bastards and draw and quarter them and
then hang them from the yard arm.
that will teach them and those like them!"
and if you were around in the 50's and 60's - I can imagine what you would say
about Rosa Parks and MLK Jr.:
"omg!!! WHAT are they doing??? why can't Rosa just go to the back of the bus?
it's not like they made her stand up or get off the bus.
the back of the bus isn't so bad.
and that reverend and all of his strong speaking and the marches and protests.
and they are causing all of that violence against themselves.
I'm all for freedoms and equality and all that but let's not go overboard.
that's all just a little too uppity for my tastes.
they should just calm down and not make waves or problems.
it's not like they are slaves still or aren't allowed to vote.
can't we all just get along?"
I am a nonviolent person so I hate it when people act or say things that
makes me wish someone would punch them in the head
to knock some sense into them.
I really hate it when that happens.
you are all poor patriots at best.
you shouldn't even be allowed to call yourselves Patriots.
you are probably just 'fair weather Patriots' and 'Sunday Patriots' and
'weekend Patriots' and 'shirt sleeve Patriots' the most of you.
get some cajones and intestinal fortitude and some intelligence and morals and bravery.
you are all very sad.