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Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas Debate Mark Roberts and Ronald Wieck - Part 2
This isn't the place for
This isn't the place for this, but I'm curious as to why the Loose Change forums are no longer up and running? And why hasn't Dylan mentioned anything about it?
Loose Change Forums
Are up and running here: http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php
Nice theatre!!! ....This
You never had an edge Dylan,
you seriously aren't too brite, are you?
yeah, they're making truckfuls of money by selling Loose Change DVD's for a dollar and letting other people copy it for free and sell it for a dollar.
have you EVER had an original and/or intelligent thought?
(you and the other Idiot above, both)
----
Ad hominem per factum, beyotch!
You are undeservedly egotistical.... often laughably so.
Pseudo-intellectuality does not behoove you.
Infiltration
So, 8 to 9 out of 10
So, 8 to 9 out of 10 movements is controlled/infiltrated. Now, ask yourselves wich are the ones with most supporters or readers? And its not just that.., they are "sriking the root" also.
Dont go around donating money, cause its not about the money..,dont be fooled.., or please do if you want to end up blacklisted for supporting a "radical movement".
Its all about control.
Keep your guard up, ALWAYS!!
Infiltration
Photos you haven't seen>
Hey Tom. I read about your
Hey Tom. I read about your story on your site. I'm trying to keep an open mind regarding what events took place on 9/11. I have absolutely no doubt it was an inside job. The motivation was clearly there in multiple instances (trillions declared missing, attack on accounting wing of pentagon, wtc7, the WTC money pit, etc.). The part that is mostly in debate amongst us is HOW the towers came down. I don't understand how you're drawing your conclusions about #6. I want to suggest that you modify the picture page you listed. I think you should do something along these lines to help convey your message more clearly so the rest of us can make better assessments of your claims. I would take all of the photos you listed, put them on one side of the page. Create duplicates of these images and place them immediately next to the originals. On the duplicate use photoshop to insert arrows and or circles around the details you are discussing to clarify things.
I think it's damn well a possibility #6 had a massive bomb go off. I don't see why it would have to be a nuke or mininuke however. We all need to keep in mind that the military is not going to disclose all new technology that they have. Individuals who are unwilling to believe this need only look at applications for US patents. Every year X patents are applied for. And every year the state dictates that Y of X are classified as secret for use by the state. Of those Y patents there is no doubt that a percentage are purely for new weapons some of which none of us could ever imagine(that's for the Tesla's and Einstein's among us....).
Be careful about concluding the hole in #6 was a nuke. It's going to make individuals who do not adhere to the scientific method tune you out.
"... In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." (Galileo Galilei, 1564 - 1642)
OIL IS OBSOLETE - WAKE UP - YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO, AGAIN!
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/
The timing of squibs is
The timing of squibs is compelling, especially in the context of explosions that breached the walls as the aircraft hit to ensure maximum penetration(don't want all those plane parts littering the street where the "groundlings" might find them).
Having said that, I too, wonder how one goes from there to nukes. The most the chain of custody presented establishes is a very definate, maybe...not. The glass could be falling out and down from above--I'm sorry, chum, it doesn't look much clearer than that.
I don't doubt your sincerity, but we do not need nukes to prove the official story is garbage.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Altho I'm somewhat dubious
about the whole "nukes" thing, 'they' are trying to figure out why the radiation levels and certain particles are so high at Ground Zero. And some sort of a tactical nuclear device and explosion does answer those questions. It is possible to have very small (relatively speaking) nuclear suitcase-like bombs that give a big explosion and would probably be easier to use if you had one/some than the equivalent amount of 'traditional' explosives. (TNT, C4, even ANFO) Don't think Hiroshima or larger style explosions, think very small, yet very large, explosions that are merely created using a nuclear bomb reaction. They are known to exist and it is possible that one, or more, were used. The Official Story claims that the high radiation levels and particles are from the jet airplane "Exit" signs. I believe that is what is stated in the 9/11 Omission Report.
----
Ad hominem per factum, beyotch!
You are undeservedly egotistical.... often laughably so.
Pseudo-intellectuality does not behoove you.
Thank you for clairfying the
Thank you for clairfying the science, but I am--very amaturishly of course--familiar with the new generation fusion bombs. They actually scare me because the small amounts of radiation they leave can be "cleaned"/ masked by showering water over the site.
See? Yes, I do understand where this could fit.
What especially scares me is because they are so relatively clean, I'm waiting for some itchy bastard(Cheney?) who wants to break the nuke taboo, to manufacture either a reason to use one, or to use one as a false flag(Iran?), thus giving the States(or Israel) cart blanche to use nuclear weapons any way they want. Ironically it is the cleaness that makes them easy to use.
Back to 911: even if true, there is a time and place, and this is not the time. I absolutely encourage further research into all the anomolies--burnt out cars otherwise intact nearby, for instance--but if the goal is holding the bastards accountable all we need to do is prove criminal culpability. We've got that--the next thing is to engage people in a way they can grasp and be galvanized. After 5 years of wishy washy garbage in towel-head land over non-existant WMD's people are willing to consider this administration in a criminal light. They are even starting to feel safe enough to look at the WTC collapse as a series of explosions. They are not ready to see nukes and even if they were, you'd need something better than that slide show.
We need to keep the momentum up AND respect that the people we are trying to reach have limits.
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
true that!
thank you for saying that. very smart.
This is Not Working !
I have just watched both parts of the debate, and I have to say I'm REALLY disappointed.
I think that there is a general tendency among people who post here to assume that all publicity is good publicity and sometimes to interpret in a positive way events that are in reality very damaging to the overall image and representation of "9/11 Truth". This debate has been one such event - maybe not critically important in itself, but, if truthers don't see how undermining this particular debate is to 9/11 Truth, this is NOT good.
Maybe there is a cognitive dissonance within 9/11 Truth which prevents truthers from seeing how compromised and undermined they are by certain types of publicity.
Let me summarise the key red flags with this debate:
1) The presenter was OPENLY supporting Mark Roberts!!
2) Bermas and Avery were WAY too chummy with their opponent - it makes them look weak, and even suggests some degree of complicity. I do believe they are genuine but the net effect of their excessively good manners is to undermine their position.
3) Why are they all sitting together side by side??? Again, this undermines the debate and makes it look like they are all on the same side.
4) They allowed the presenter who is openly partisan to FRAME the debate as "conspiriscists Vs the Debunker". In terms of psychological warfare this is a total disasaster for 9/11 Truth. They should have refused point blank to allow the debate to be framed in this way. Jason and Dylan are the debunkers - Mark Roberts is the representative of the Official Fairy Tale - this should have been rammed down our throats. Unfortunately, it appeared exactly opposite, and Jason was put into the ridiculous position of trying to justify his irrational "conspiracy theories" against the "rational" Mark Roberts and the presenter.
5) They didn't stay focussed on their own best evidence. They didn't debate WTC7 !!! This is really unforgivable and, sorry to say it, but it makes our boys look like disinfo agents. I really wish I didn't have to say this, but I have to call it as I see it. There is a LOT at stake here.
Does anybody else see this the way I do? I really hope so, not because I want to be right, but because I want 9/11 Truth to succeed.
best regards,
Hereward
Editor - www.911oz.com
You got what you asked for
Why don't we have government
Why don't we have government scientists debating non-government 'truther' scientists? Why must the government send out schills and trained propagandists to debate guys who don't even hold a Doctorate?
I would ask if our government is full of a bunch of wussies but we already know it is. And don't tell me the government doesn't have the time nor the money to do so. I worked in the government and I know how much time and money they could actually put to the issue. Unfortunately they'd rather spend money determining who shot a load on some interns dress. Weasels.
"... In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." (Galileo Galilei, 1564 - 1642)
OIL IS OBSOLETE - WAKE UP - YOU'VE BEEN LIED TO, AGAIN!
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/
I agree with you Hereward
I thought the same things.
The LC crew need to stay away from these freaks.
It was quite juvenile almost to have been played so easily.
I agree with you Hereward
Truthers here are some what hesistant to criticize Dylan and Jason, for somewhat obvious reasons. But this debate is worthy of objective criticism.
Someone claiming to be "Dylan Avery" posted on the previous blog about how some here are "haters" and how he never asked for this. Im not even sure its really Dylan as the posts remain "unverified" (wuz up with that?)
I do know that 911blogger.com is the definitive website for Truthers to express their feelings about the movement. So if Dylan cant take the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen.
I particularly agree with your observation that our guys appeared way too chummy. What the hell was that!?!? This is still about innocent Americans being slaughtered. This is still about treason at the very highest levels of our government. This is still about the assault on our civil liberties and wars based on lies. What the hell are Dylan and Jason doing yucking it up with these schmucks!?!?
I didnt like it one bit. I seriously hope "Final Cut" is packed with the punch we all hope it will bring.
first and foremost, yes,
first and foremost, yes, this is me.
second, if you actually believe the outcome of a Brooklyn Public Access show debate is going to impact the movement as a whole in any way, shape, or form, I think you're mistaken.
third, we weren't there to cause a scene.
fourth, those guys have their minds made up, and bermas and I knew that going in. there's nothing we can say or do to sway them, aside from a document signed by George W. Bush himself.
again, this debate changes NOTHING, in the reality of the situation.
Chris, YOU go on Hardfire. I'd love to see how you do. I'm sure Ron would love to have you on.
Dylan
We are on your side. Stop being so sensitive. I know its hard when people take shots at you. You put yourself out there and I admire you for doing it.
AGAIN... WE ARE ON YOUR SIDE!!! (Even when it may not seem like it).
And please visit more often. Not just when we are picking on you.
;-)
Some More Observations
Dylan, Here is one example of a fatal strategic error: when discussing the NIST report they put you guys into the position of having to PROVE your assertions, whereas, you should have had the heat on them all the time.
You guys should have stayed on message about how the NIST report, despite its 10,000 pages, fails to expain what happened after the towers were "poised for collapse" - and you should have relentlessly pressured them to explain why there was no computer modelling of the "global collapse".
You could have framed that by, firstly, discussing the MONEY that went into this report (in excess of USD $20 million), and then reading the little footnote where it says this report does not address the mechanism of global collapse. You should have quoted that verbatim - it's gold!
You should have also quoted from the fire engineering article by Bill Manning: "Did they throw away the locked doors from the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire? Did they throw away the gas can used at the Happyland Social Club Fire? Did they cast aside the pressure-regulating valves at the Meridian Plaza Fire? Of course not. But essentially, that's what they're doing at the World Trade Center."
I am keen to debate these kind of people myself, and I'm learning from watching your mistakes, so its ok ... (:
Good answers--though I too
Good answers--though I too wondered about the "not verified". I thought you had a 911Blogger account. Clairification...?
Keep that center and focus. I haven't seen the second part yet--am in the middle of a brutal work schedule--but if its anything like the last, you done good.
Some unsolicited thoughts for you: be aware many of your supporters have a hard time seeing "chumminess" as a strategy. After seeing apparent friendliness, they need to see some iron first--just keep it in a velvet glove. All this where appropirate, obviously.
Also, I do agree with the person who said you need to pick your gigs, so to speak. Weigh the pros/cons--what there is to be gained, what there is to loose--and don't let anyone say you're cowards if you refuse and you know exactly why you needed to refuse.
Lastly, have you considered proposing a team project with Griffin or Jones? Safety in numbers, mate...
Impeachment. Accountability. A better world.
Snitch
Stop playing the victim
Stop playing the victim Dylan
This was a setup! The LC
This was a setup! The LC boys waled right into a trap!
Dylan and friends need to find out in advance and make sure that the moderator is neutral and open minded.
They need to do their homework. They need to standby their work. They need to refine thir debating skills. They need to have better talking points.
They need to redeem themselves. Or else lose all credibility - permanently!
Neutral Host
Mr. Wieck, I hope that you
Mr. Wieck, I hope that you someday remove your head from the sand and begin to see what has been going on around you.
I googled to find some more information on you and saw that you don't believe that the 2004 election was stolen. That shows that you live in denial and ignorance about even the most commonly known and proven things. I rest my case. God bless you.
hits since April 13, 2005:
911Blogger.com is in no way associated with any other websites bearing the name 911Blogger in their name. The only site with which this site is affiliated is our sister site 911Podcasts.com. Any other website bearing the name 911Blogger in its name is in violation of the trademark of this website and is in no way related to the creators of 911Blogger.com.
Hard Fire on the record for coverup.
Why would anyone publicly try to prevent an investigation into the mass murder of 3000 US citizens. The general consensus amongst the Truth Movement is primarily interested in an independent investigation. If the government has done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear. It's normal to investigate government agencies. The level of the 911 attacks going without an independent investigation is simply unsatisfactory. Even more regrettful are guys like Ronald and Mark airing their assistance in covering up a massive crime. Perhaps that is why these small-time stooges were chosen for the task - because no one with half a brain would want to get caught up with War Crime investigations. Especially when the higher-ups are subpoenaed and start pushing all the blame to the lower ranks. Hard Fire on the record for coverup.