Lost Forever,

I totally get where you are coming from.
I don't even have the guts to talk about any of this to my family who are mostly die-hard bush supportors.

I commend you for bringing this up to your niece's attention.
It seems that her mind is completely closed or almost completely closed on the subject. She pulled out one very minor point in Griffin's myths, and even got that wrong (you're right the Bingham call was a cell phone and that's what Griffin said).

Anyway, bring up some of the other points he made but remember family will be the hardest!

Good luck,
Kevin

Kevin - thanks // but how can this be?


So simple, I turn on a light and yet you deny that you can see? You would think that family (good family) would be open minded . . . I guess not.

Is this true? Only one (1) cellphone call?

Yes, the government introduced into evidence for the Moussaoui trial, a flash presentation which included data on all 4 flights. You can easily identify the Airfone calls by the fact that they list the row the phone was installed in. Many of the passengers made calls from the back of the plane, even though their seats were in the front. It also lists the hijackers by seat. So much for that "they were not on the flight manifests" thing.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution...

like those pictures of "corpses" found in the Pentagon... yup.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

Now you are claiming that nobody died at the Pentagon?

How did you get into Harvard again?

I love the rules of conspiracy theory evidence. If I find some unsubstaniated claim on a webpage run by a 17 year old in his parents' basement, I can repeat it ad infinitum, no questions asked, if it could possibly support a conspiracy theory.

Evidence introduced into court by professional investigators under penalty of perjury, examined by a judge, and cross examined by a team of defense attorneys, well that can't be considered "evidence" it must be fake! We can dismiss that without even looking at it!

Well, take a look at this picture: http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution...

and tell me if that's a real corpse.

And look at a partial list of some of the other evidence you can see on that site. Yep, I believe it all!!

PA00101 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia ID card recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00102 Saudi Arabian Youth Hostel Association ID for Ahmed A. A. Al-Nami recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00103.2 Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00103.3 Passport sized photo recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00105.08 Page 37 and part of U.S. Visa page from Ziad Jarrah's Passport recovered at the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00108 Kingdom of Saudi Arabia passport for Saeed A A A Al Ghamdi recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00109 Business card of Assem Jarrah recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00110 Part of Ahmed A A Al Nami's Florida Driver's License recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PA00111 Red bandana recovered from the United Airlines Flight 93 crash site
PE00102 Partial ID card reading ALHAZMI from the Pentagon crash site

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

Thank you for providing this picture of a dead body at the Pentagon. This is the first picture of any casualties at the Pentagon that I have seen. However, I do not see your point. Are you saying this body came from an airplane? I see no connection between this body and an airplane. I do not think anyone is disputing the fact that some people died at the Pentagon, but how does the picture of a dead body get FACTUALLY connected to an alleged airplane allegedly causing the death?

a lot of people want 100% absolute proof in 5 minutes or else they really just don't have time..

youll find some 20+ person panels that have been held in the past.. if you can get someone to watch these they will get the bigger picture, whether or not they make the time to is really out of your control:

http://www.911busters.com/

"a lot of people want 100% absolute proof in 5 minutes or else they really just don't have time.."

No, most people would just like some facts and you morons have none.

WTC7, Silverstein admitting the "pulled it" on camera, the eyewitness testimony of Explosions in the Towers, the freefall manner in which they came down in their footprints, the PNAC RAD documents, the 15 War Games that day, the Air Defense Stand-Down, the changing the Air Force Intercept Procedure in June '01, Bush remaining in School House after 2nd plane hits, the no identifiable 757 debris at either the Pentagon of Shanksville, Rumsfeld saying "a missle" hit the Penagon and 93 was "shot down", the unprosecuted insider trading, the fake Bin Laden tape(s), the filmed Mineta testimony, and finally, the 441 days--during which the physical evidence was shipped overseas--until an thoroughly resisted "investigation" was forced on this Administration under demands from outraged American Citizens.

Except for all that, yeah...we have no evidence....

Living with all that denial must be tough.

The "fire contingent" was pulled hours earlier...Around 1 pm local time. Buy a clue, it helps.

Bingham called from an Airfone, not a cellphone. Only one phone call was made from United 93 on a cellphone, and that was towards the end of the flight when they were below 7000 feet. The rest were made from Airfones.

As for why Bingham addressed his mother this way, did it occur to any of you to ask his mother?

Hoglan: I was staying with my brother Vaughan on the morning of September 11th, and, uh, the phone rang.

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/mom-this-is-mark-bingham.ht...

"Mom, this is Mark Bingham" and "I think the smartest thing to do is just pull it" belong in the miscellaneous circumstantial evidence of any paper or speech. Getting stuck on that stuff doesn't help anyone, except maybe those trying to discredit the movement.

Griffin reminded me of some great points in his speech, such as that steel is a very good conductor of heat, therefore it would take an extreme amount of heat (much more than a starved kerosene fire) to heat up any one section of steel enough to even weaken it. And for all 200+ columns to fail at the same time to cause a vertical and instantaneous collapse would be nearly impossible. The hottest steel sample NIST could find only reached about 250 deg C. not the ~900 deg C. required for the steel to start losing a significant amount of its strength.

Anyway, Griffin's speech was a good summary of the major bullet points of what's wrong with the "Government's outrageous conspiracy theory," all miscellany aside.

The steel box columns were a "heat sink" ...the steel and it's conductivity would disperse the heat away from the source of the heat..... this is another reason that the design of the WTC made it more resiliant to fire.... the coulmns would have had to be heated equally on all sides of this type of column to cause failure.... many of those coulmns had a center fin as well which would help to distribute the heat..... this type of structure is probably 100 times more resiliant to fire than standard steel I-Beam construction....

the possibility of those types of coulmns failing in a fire are beyond remote..... especially a complete and symmetrical collapse.... we all know that those buildings could not fall in that manner. If they would have collapsed it would have taken far far longer than one hour.... the fire wouldd have had to be more intense and burn far more efficiently.... and when the buildings fell...at some point the falling debris would have met the resistance of the structure and then toppled sideways into the city.... at the very least.

two buildings with two unique damage patterns.... two unique fire distributions.... fell in exactly the same manner? Please!

Then you throw in the occurance of building #7????

he he

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

you really have to give her something more than faked cell phone calls and voice morphing technology. im not saying it wasnt used on 9/11, im just saying there is MUCH more to the story to sway her than those 2 things. tell her to watch Loose Change or Zwickers DVD. its not very long, im sure she can handle it.

I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with the phone calls being fake. Surely there could have been 'real' hijackings on the planes. Hijackings that were real to the passengers and fake to the hijackers. There were drills running on 9/11 after all and if the planes were switched then it would be even easier to do this. But even if the planes weren't switched then disposable government agents perhaps even the 19 alleged hijackers, could have been carrying out the hijackings completely unaware of what was about to happen.

until anyone can show conclusive evidence that there were, hijackings are an unfounded allegation. There is no need to speculate about the phone calls being fake when there is no proof that they came from planes. And Bingham's mom? I think she's an actress, possibly Phyllis Diller. Seriously though, where are the black boxes? Where are the hijackers' boarding passes? Surely the airlines should have copies! Where are all the videos of all the hijackers going through security? It's much easier to lie than it is to prove something is a lie. But we shouldn't have to prove that lies are lies--they should have to prove that what they are saying is true, which they haven't done by any stretch of the imagination. Plus, the number of lies we know they've told should make us 100% skeptical of anything else they have claimed untilk we see rock solid evidence, which phone calls are not.

____

Real Truther a.k.a. Verdadero Verdadero

WTCdemolition.com - Harvard Task Force

The fact is that DRG does put forward some weak arguments. Focusing on the phone calls, in my opinion, is a mistake. On the other hand you might point out to your very intelligent neice that DRG is talking about personal cellular phone calls and not airphone calls, and that while some of what he says may sound outrageous some of it is, in fact, based on logic and evidence.

Although now I find out that Bingham was calling on an Airphone.

...is despicable!

Did the billionaire land owners in NYC push for an independent investigation into 9/11? No? Who did exactly? Oh yes, the victim's families did.

You're the offensive one.

How am I despicable? I am just quoting him. Did you have any family killed in the attack? If not then Griffin is saying that you weren't angry, because of the limited damage caused by the collapse of the towers.

If those buildings had toppled sideways the entire city may have burned to the ground.. there would not have been enough firefighters to stop a raging inferno the size of three city blocks... New York may have been a total loss.

and the loss of life would have been much much greater.....

then the American People would have insisted we nuke the Middle East to oblivion.

I still can't understnd why they didn't just come out and say there may have been secondary devices in the parking garage? Would have put much of this to sleep.... at least for a few more years.