9/11 FAMILIES, FIRST RESPONDERS AND SURVIVORS TO TAKE NEW YORK CITY TO COURT OVER NYC CAN PETITION
July 27, 2009
SEVENTY THOUSAND New Yorkers signed the NYC CAN petition, raising their voices in support of NYC CAN’s demand for accountability. They have chosen to place the decision to create a new 9/11 investigation – a REAL 9/11 investigation – exactly where it belongs: before the voters of New York City this November. The voices of SEVENTY THOUSAND Americans who believe in democracy and believe that government exists to serve the people – and not the other way around – have been GAGGED by ONE so-called “PUBLIC SERVANT” – The New York City Clerk – who denied the petition and the voice of the people.
Welcome to America. Democracy denied.
Did you REALLY expect those in halls of power to honor the WILL OF THE PEOPLE? Did you expect this demand for accountability to go uncontested by those who have forgotten the very meaning of the word? Perhaps this obstruction of democracy would go unchallenged in THEIR America. Not in OUR America.
9/11 family members, first responders and survivors expected nothing less than business as usual and ARE NOT HAVING IT. They are preparing to take the City of New York to court to challenge the wrongful denial of our right to decide on the creation of a new 9/11 investigation.
Friends, your determination and generosity have brought us to this crucial moment. TRUTH IS AT THE CROSSROADS, DEMOCRACY UNDER FIRE AND THE DEFINING MOMENT IN THE QUEST FOR ACCOUNTABILITY IS UPON US. This is YOUR movement and nothing may bring you closer to attaining truth than NYC CAN. Stand in the light and demand ANSWERS, not in the shadows of those who would deny you such answers.
THE BIG NEWS: the most experienced election lawyer in New York City stands ready to represent the 9/11 families, first responders and survivors in court in an HISTORIC FIGHT FOR DEMOCRACY AND TRUTH. BUT WE DESPERATELY NEED YOUR FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. This is your chance – your ONE chance – to stand with the 9/11 families, first responders and survivors, and demand accountability. THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE WORKED FOR, AND WHAT WE CAN ACHIEVE IF WE STAND TOGETHER NOW.
Donate over $25 and we’ll mail you a free NYC CAN button. Donate over $50 and you will receive a free NYC CAN button and a well-made NYC CAN t-shirt.
ACT RIGHT NOW. Go to – http://nyccan.org/donate.php – and donate whatever you can to bring the quest for answers to the biggest stage it has ever had: THE NEW YORK CITY BALLOT.
"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” Theodore Parker
- Jon Gold's blog
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Apparently...
They're saying a small percentage of the signatures are valid, and have blocked the petition. I just sent another $50 I can't afford, so please send something.
You celebrities out there that can drop $10k without even noticing, now would be the time for you to put up.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
I also gave $50
for the third time now.
If Not Me? Who? If Not Now? When?
http://www.northtexas911truth.com/
Contact City Clerk Legal
City Clerk Legal - 212.669.3545
Please call and put the pressure on these creeps and let them we are not going to let this go unchecked. Demand to know why the Ballot Initiative is being blocked.
another 25$
Another 25$ from Spain. We can do it!!
Shenanigans
I just got this email too and was waiting for you to post it here. Sounds like the Clerk is blocking it from going to the City Council, right? Or has the City Council begun the count? Who is blocking it? There is no way that a full counting could have been completed-- and even if many signatures aren't vailid--- only 30,000 had to be. Additionally NYCCAN paid the required submission fee, so that can't be it.
Shenanigans. To be expected though. I'll send them another $50 as well. Find out some more from Ted, Jon.
From what I understand...
They are saying a smaller percentage than needed is valid, and apparently, they aren't counting signatures that they should. I just got off the phone with Kyle Hence who is affiliated with NYCCAN to try and understand what's happening. I'm sorry, but this is kind of out of the blue.
Edit: I have sent a request for a better description of what's going on.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
link?
Is there any news item reporting this ballot rejection? This is the first I've heard of it.
Me to...
And to answer your question about a "news item..." This is America, where our media is controlled. The answer would be no.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Petition donations
I just sent $25.
Can anyone give more details? Did the Clerk refuse to take the petitions with the signatures? Did the clerk take the petitions and then do a random sample of the signatures to determine the % of valid signatures? And THEN reject for insufficient number of valid signatures? Someone should do a public records request for the "random sample." Was it "salted" with bogus signatures to skew the % of valid signatures? Did the "powers that be" send out minions to sign the petitions with false signatures to assure this result?
Also, not all governmental actions are subject to an initiative petition. I was expecting that a rejection might be lodged based on the investigation being "administrative" or "ministerial" in nature and therefore, not a proper subject of an intiative petition. Generally, only legislative matters may be voted on in an initiative. Has this issue been vetted by lawyers?
"Has this issue been vetted by lawyers?". . .
. . . yes, that's key here. and does anyone know to whom the following refers? "the most experienced election lawyer in New York City stands ready to represent the 9/11 families, first responders and survivors in court..."?
>>I'm sorry, but this is
>>I'm sorry, but this is kind of out of the blue.
This is pretty much a given with any political or money-involved ballot initiative, in case you've never been involved in one before. Almost all such efforts are blocked as hard as possible by a city because in the US, corporations control the politicians. Corporations own it all, and they like war, not peace, lawlessness, not law.
Not blue, but rather Green
How much "Justice" can you afford? This is to be expected, folks...it's the way things work.
True. Wish more people had discussed that fact beforehand.
One thing that might have given me more faith in those coordinating this effort would have been more realistic strategic planning. Was there a plan in place on the reasonable assumption that the initiative might be rejected.
We just kept on hearing that 70,000 signature would "force" the city to put in on the ballot. Turns out that wasn't true. Now what?
besides donations...
... does anyone have any ideas on what we can do to bring some pressure to bare on this?
just who exactly do you complain to?
the city council? http://council.nyc.gov/html/members/members.shtml
It would seem to fall within their oversight jurisdiction.
but i would not hold my breath expecting results.
"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA
Accountability is a problem
Some people think they can get away with anything.
But they're wrong. See-- Ninth Circle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)
______________________________________
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/
http://truthaction.org/forum/
http://www.911blacklist.org/
oh?
like what Jenny?
it appears that you have been posting in a number of different threads here referring to me with semi-nasty insinuations:
"And somehow they knew where John was coming from--maybe because they call it home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)"
Jenny - for someone who spends all her time blogging about internet stalkers and trolls - you appear to be taking a page right out of their playbook.
i know full well that you were the victim of some of the most vicious online attacks. and - as you know - so was i. but - your obsession with this topic - and desire to suck others into your fights is becoming problematic. is this is not trolling - what is?
"it appears that you have
"it appears that you have been posting in a number of different threads here referring to me"
Please don't exaggerate. You are only quoting from one thread. Which makes this statement
"you appear to be taking a page right out of their playbook"
so "katherine"--EXACTLY what he does--exaggerate, blame the messenger and try to paint himself the victim.
______________________________________
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/
http://truthaction.org/forum/
http://www.911blacklist.org/
Katherine
whatever. you said:
"And somehow they knew where John was coming from--maybe because they call it home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)"
that pretty much exposes your agenda here
I don't understand
Why hasn't NYCAN published the names and home addresses of the city clerk, lawyers, and all other local government officials who are blocking this petition? This way couldn't citizens hold peaceful protests outside their houses, and ask them face to face why they are doing this - preferably on camera?
Is this a handful of people subverting the will of tens of thousands of citizens?
Blocking an investigation into mass murder and high treason?
.
What I don't understand is why this hasn't already been done?
I bet the real perpetrators of 9/11 have these people's names and addresses and a lot more.
This is a horrible day
For New York City, for the United States, and for the world.
Given this behavior, what good will it do to have a referendum on the investigation? They'll just compromise the voting machines en masse, as they did in 2000, 2004 and probably 2008.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" — John F. Kennedy
Mechanical lever machines still used in NY
If this makes you feel a little better about something snowcrash, New York still uses the old style lever voting machines so "fixing" the vote in the state of NY is very difficult at that level. In fact, a write-in option is also available in a NYS voting machine.
From what I understand, we are only state in full compliance with the constitution (according to bradblog New York is the last state in the nation to have a non-computerized, transparent voting system. We still use immutable, theft-deterring mechanical lever voting machines...
www.bradblog.com/?cat=376)
peace
dtg
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"In this hour of need, we must all hang together otherwise we will most assuredly hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
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Yes
that does make me feel better :-)
Thanks!
Sending more money
Just gave another $25. last week and giving $25. more now so up to $175. Everyone should donate now - whoever is reading this.......The clerk must be questioned how he derived his formula for refusal - and that doesn't require a lawyer. A letter is sufficient asking for details.
If the clerk can't provide sufficient information, and he won't be able to, then it's going to be annoying and costly. The New York Court system is as corrupt as any third world country's regardless of the issue.
Contact City Clerk Legal
City Clerk Legal - 212.669.3545
Please call and put the pressure on these creeps and let them we are not going to let this go unchecked. Demand to know why the Ballot Initiative is being blocked.
No surprise here.
In my opinion, expressed many times in many ways and places over the past couple years, the rejection of the initiative which I had previously anticipated is just the first of many problems this effort will encounter from both external and internal sources.
So, how much money donated to NYCCAN is going to go to challenging the city? Will the effort be able to generate some press for the movement? And if the initiative is rejected, what kind of frustration and burnout will result? All that effort over two years for so little outcome.
I'm not feeling like my concerns are less valid right now.
Thanks for your opinion Julian
What do you suggest be done about it?
________________________
“The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
http://www.ubuntu.com
Actually, this is one of the few outcomes I had hoped for.
Having the city reject the initiative might actually be the best possible outcome considering my opinion of all the internal problems the effort faces.
As John is pointing out, this could be a real opportunity for some good press. So what I recommend is that we fashion a very mature response to this rejection that plays up our democratic rights, our basic desire for answers without any mention of 9/11 facts, and makes clear exactly who supports the initiative, the public, and our more notable participants.
We should contact news outlets and feed this story to as many as possible on the assumption that if only a few pick it up that others will follow.
We should also have activists in NYC plan a march on City Hall to protest this action handing out flyers to the public that let everyone know what we are about.
Great ideas
Theres our marching orders, people. Following Julian's post as a rough guideline, some great opportunities present themselves ..
________________________
“The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
http://www.ubuntu.com
Jules
Some of your concerns are certainly valid, but why is it that you focus so much on the negative stuff that you even have a blog about it?
It's as if you slam the 9/11 truth movement constantly under the guise of allegedly being its truest and most uncorrupted participant. I'm not sure putting the spotlight on the negativity and amplifying it is really helping any of us. I'm cynical too sometimes, but not all the time. How many people reading your blog are going to say: "I quit, this movement is going nowhere"?
It's even literally in your blog's "About" section:
I'm not sure I really like you if that is your blog's accomplishment.
Gee. How well you've misrepresented my intentions.
http://911truthburnout.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-about-this-blog.html
Not your intentions per se
..but the consequences. I just thought I'd be as frank about this as you are. We need to win people over AND have some quality control, not just the latter without the former...
Jules, I disagree with the very premise of your blog.
You blog about how burned out you are with the movement; indeed you say that your blog is for people who have "stopped participating" due to "ineffective leadership" etc.
First of all, since you created that blog, you've been nothing but negative energy. When you created it, I was feeling some burnout too, and I kind of actually liked the premise of your blog. No longer.
You haven't "stopped participating" yourself. In fact you seem to participate just as prolifically as ever. You just seem to turn this negative burnout onto members of the movement itself, rather than the perps.
Despite what you see as a failed, or at least ineffective, movement, this movement has made TREMENDOUS progress and success. SO much progress since I've been in it since 2005. All the experts for 9/11 truth groups. The growing numbers of people according to scientific polls who doubt the official story.
The very fact that NYCCAN received so many signatures.
You said somewhere: "If ANYONE calls me an agent, it's over."
Develop some thicker skin bro. One person in the movement, 4 or 5 months ago, suspected ME of being an agent, at least temporarily. I don't hold a grudge. I even stayed at this person's house during the CIT and AIA conferences. This person, of course, had in the interim concluded that I was probably not an agent after all.
You focus on individuals with the movement who you claim to have been "damaging." Do you not realize that the average citizen has never heard of Craig Ranke, Kevin Barrett, Webster Tarpley, and the Kennebunkport Warning? Even many (perhaps most) truthers are not aware of all the details of the infighting. But instead of "forgive and forget," you dwell.
I like to spread the word about the Japanese senator, Arizona senator and other major figures who reject the official story. And the architects and engineers, and pilots, and veterans. You know, the ones who had not yet united in 2005?
You have a preoccupation with trying to divert people away from certain works, just because they might contain flaws. I was firmly convinced in 2005 by "In Plane Site," even though I was NEVER convinced about the pod or the cruise missile or the windowless plane. Simple premise: If even 10% of what IPS said was true, 9/11 would have to be an inside job. Yet you make a big deal of trying to convince WACLA to take IPS off its page.
You claim Citizen Investigation Team and their work is a "waste of time," yet you clearly "wasted" quite a bit of time yourself to write that not-very-short blog entry.
If you're really and truly burned out with this movement, you should take your own advice and "stop participating" until such time that your spirits are back up and you're feeling mentally re-energized.
Amen Adam. Thank You
If Not Me? Who? If Not Now? When?
http://www.northtexas911truth.com/
Ditto-Adam good statement of how positive our efforts have been.
Stats are up, way up. As a movement we are winning! Most people, including most 9/11 Truthers, are unaware of the occasional negative aspects. Anyone who is out on the street spreading the word about 9/11 and actually doing 9/11 TruthActions knows that we are winning.
More misrepresentation. My blog does not say I'm burned out!
"Burnout is a natural result of participation in social movements. In any pursuit that doesn't involve much direct confirmation of the result of one's effort, it is very likely that motivation will wax and wane. Group affiliation is important for this reason. We gain a great deal of motivation from those with whom we work for change. Sharing our frustrations is essential for maintaining group momentum and personal optimism."
"In this way I hope to air out the deep frustrations of many people who want the truth but feel that the movement is not facing it's own truth. In the process I also hope to offer reasons for optimism and continued investment."
Almost every post of mine offers suggestions about constructive ways to deal with frustration or things that people may not like about the movement. Burnout is a reality, many have left the movement as a result, and some are at risk of burning out and need to know that others understand their frustration.
Obviously you are not my audience.
"Obviously you are not my audience."
Obviously if I've taken the time to peruse your blog, I AM part of your audience.
I was feeling a bit of burnout too, earlier in 2009. Perhaps it was because I was doing too many google news searches on "9/11 conspiracy" and finding all the hit pieces, or even positive pieces with nasty comments in the feedback section.
Handing out some DVDs on the street, and especially the conferences this month of the pilots and architects/engineers re-fueled my fire, and I'm feeling as upbeat and energized as I ever have as an activist.
-Adam H. Syed
PS I'll vote you up if you correctly guess my middle name. :-)
How right you are...
My INTENDED audience that is.
Hmmm
Herbert? heh.
Jules The Firehose
This guy has been a downer ever since he and another twerp named Max failed to bull their way to the top of New York 9/11 Truth about 3 1/2 years ago. He's apparently been working on revenge ever since. What do you think about someone that walks through icy and slushy and filthy New York East Village streets in 20 degree winter weather wearing flip flops? I've seen it. Also seen Nico Haupt pull a half eaten sandwich out of a trash can and down it, but that's a story for another day...
LOL!!! :) Hey Rodney. You're priceless.
This is Rodney. He's one of those few people who support Les, apparently without the ability to find any fault with him. He's consistently backed Les, defending his lies and his support for people that are totally nuts.
Now, since people have decided to waste their time making this thread all about attacking me, he shows up to get in a couple of punches. Have a ball. You could only make me laugh.
Kisses.
You disagree with the premise that someone might be tired?
Bully for you and you inexhaustible reserves.
And your good fortune to never have you sky clouded by the slightest troubles.
But contrary to this pollyanna view you apparently hold:
"You focus on individuals with the movement who you claim to have been "damaging." Do you not realize that the average citizen has never heard of Craig Ranke, Kevin Barrett, Webster Tarpley, and the Kennebunkport Warning? Even many (perhaps most) truthers are not aware of all the details of the infighting. But instead of "forgive and forget," you dwell."
The bastards are still out there having ago at people because they think they can get away with it. They're the same people behind this bollox:
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/2009/05/mark-humphrey-is-not-harley-g...
And Barrett, Fetzer and Tarpley all know who's behind it. And I mean know these people personally. Nothing a good police investigation won't uncover if someone goes too far with the death threats, et al---
So no, there will be no "forgive and forget" while these bastards keep trying to make people's lives miserable and others continue to make excuses for their unethical and criminal behavior.
______________________________________
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/
http://truthaction.org/forum/
http://www.911blacklist.org/
yes your concerns were valid
but saying 'i told you so' will not help.
Yes we knew there would be resistance.
But when you consider that African Americans were beaten down in the streets in the early 1960s and attacked with dogs and fire hoses – facing resistance is not a sufficient justification for standing on the sidelines – risking nothing - predicting failure - and discouraging their actions.
African Americans did not blame their own poor planning – or bad judgment – or bad organizing skills – or blame Dr King – for those beatings they received. They, in fact, accepted the nature of the fight they were in – remembered what they were fighting for - and continued to march into the waiting crowds of billy clubs and police batons and mace and tear gas and wholesale beatings and lynchings.
You had concerns about this initiative from the beginning?
That’s fine.
But, standing on the curb and criticizing people who are getting their heads cracked open - bravely demanding their voices be heard – is somewhat counter-intuitive to your own cause.
"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA
Not a very strong comparison because I agree with both of us
Black people during the civil rights movement knew what the stakes were. They knew what they were getting themselves into. They anticipated the kind of resistance they faced.
Did the organizers of the ballot initiative anticipate the possibility that the initiative might be rejected despite gathering 70,000 signatures? Did they make sure that people knew that might happen in order to prevent disappointment? Did they have a plan in place if this were to happen? I saw nothing and that gave me very valid reason for concern.
And while I haven't explicitly said 'I told you so', I think it's important to note that those expressing skepticism, caution, and concern about the initiative not be sidelined and ignored by people, some of whom, not you, are acting like dissent is unpatriotic.
You know what? I know I'm playing an unpopular role here. But somewhere in the middle doesn't make the point strongly enough. I'm pushing hard to make sure people know that strategic skepticism is essential.
well..
you ask many questions grasshopper:
"Did the organizers of the ballot initiative anticipate the possibility that the initiative might be rejected despite gathering 70,000 signatures? Did they make sure that people knew that might happen in order to prevent disappointment? Did they have a plan in place if this were to happen?"
i don't know. do you? you seem to insinuate that you do. you seem to be implying that they were not prepared for today's news - when the subject of this thread contradicts this premise. it APPEARS that they are indeed preparing to take the city to court.
wouldn't it actually be exciting if they did?
strategic skepticism? it only works when you agree to a collaborative relationship. i don't think strategic skepticism works from the bleacher seats -and you speculate endlessly about things you cannot possibly know.
"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA
That's not fair and I don't agree.
You don't know and that's exactly my point. I've had to make reasonable speculation because this effort has been far less transparent than it should be.
Sure they have a response. Did anyone but them know about it? No. Did they prepare others for this possibility? No. Did they overstate the certainty that 70,000 votes would get in on the ballot? Yes. Are they now going to spend money that people thought would go to something else on legal counsel? Yes.
And don't call me grasshopper. You are in no position to be condescending toward me having agreed with much of what I'm saying for two years and as recently as two weeks ago. That also makes it really awkward for you to say I'm in the bleacher seats when you have been more a bench warmer than I for some time.
I appreciate what you are trying to do. But I could not possibly derail this effort on my own, And people really need to see that there are those who see potential problems and won't just sideline them for the sake of unity. Skepticism does not require unity. I assume we are still in agreement that the big tent is problematic. I refuse to get on this bandwagon. As Christs4sale very aptly stated on the TruthMove forum, this thing is a big house with a weak foundations. It doesn't matter how much we add to the house or how many times we repaint it. If the foundation is weak, the house won't stay standing.
I really am hoping for the best. But I'm not going to neglect my insight or experience in the process.
Not true...
"Did they overstate the certainty that 70,000 votes would get in on the ballot? Yes."
As was pointed out in this thread in an email to me sent from Ted Walter, "In total we need at least 75,000 signatures because the City Clerk will challenge as many signatures as possible. It also works in two stages. The first 52,000 we submitted should suffice for the 30,000 needed to put it before City Council. We need an extra 15,000 then to override City Council, and we anticipate the City Clerk will be even more ruthless with the second batch, so we want at least double the required number of 15,000."
The 52,000 (22,000 over the needed number) didn't suffice, and that's why they are now bringing it to court because apparently the City Clerk disqualified over 22,000 signatures.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Challenging the Signatures: Standard Procedure?
As reported by Jon, Ted Walter stated that "the City Clerk will challenge as many signatures as possible."
Why did Ted Walter expect such challenge on the part of the City Clerk?
Because such challenge is standard procedure in the case of a referendum proposal or for another reason?
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the original post.
It says the city clerk "denied" the petition. To me that signified not simply that the petitions were under review, which as stated above is totally to be expected, but that the initiative had been rejected wholesale.
What's the deal now? Are we waiting for signatures to be validated? Or did the city clerk simply toss the whole thing out with no regard for procedure. You say below that the initial 30,000 weren't certified. Does that negate the relevance of all the other signatures?
Neither would surprise me. I obviously wish that there would have been more explicit discussion of either of these possibilities before now.
You're not being 100% honest here
Sorry - but you are not being 100% honest here.
YOu said:
"As Christs4sale very aptly stated on the TruthMove forum, this thing is a big house with a weak foundations. It doesn't matter how much we add to the house or how many times we repaint it. If the foundation is weak, the house won't stay standing."
Christs4sale said:
"I see NYCCAN as a decent house that was build with a shitty foundation. The shitty foundation is what you are stuck with on the ballot from Les' design. All these endorsements piling on improve the quality of the house, but do not effect the foundation. At this point we cannot dismantle the house to redo the foundation. We just have to live with it, see where it takes us and compensate accordingly wherever possible."
He called the initiative a "decent house" and did not state that the house won't stay standing.
I see nothing constructive coming from this debate. you are obviously exaggerating at this point - and this is probably a result of feeling confronted and ganged up pn.
"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA
???
Are you serious? I was paraphrasing. Possibly not all that well, but a far cry from intentional dishonesty. Our points were basically the same. And don't get all psychobabble on me. I don't spend much time posting here for many reasons. And I don't intend to start making this a regular venue for my comments.
I'm rather surprised at how much time people are spending responding to me. If I'm so wrong and off base and dealing with a hurt ego or whatever it is people think, then just ignore me. People are going out of their way to vote even my positive comments down. And some of the comments here show no respect for anything I have done.
John, I don't want to argue with you specifically. I think this is just another example of us getting a bit blustery with each other. I appreciate what you are trying to do here even though I'm thinking maybe it will lead to frustration. That would be concern. I'm a bit miffed that you endorsed the initiative, but I'll get over it.
Some others here and I are having a sincere disagreement. But the rest? Meh. Whatever. They are the reason I don't post here, and some of them the reason I started by burnout blog.
And then there's Rodney. LOL.
I wouldn't assume it's just blustery
Let's look at our Roots. Where we came from, how we got here. All that.
John made a movie. Very well received. One individual liked it so much, they made a transcript of it:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5834
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5834#comment-111743
"I have a transcript that I did myself last year.
I'll email it to you if you'll contact me through the "contact" feature on my user profile."
That's hard work--I've made some transcripts and they're dead tedious. One would have to be dead motivated to do that. So I guess I'm wondering how did that individual go from super fan to this?
http://www.911blogger.com/node/6695?page=2
(page 3)
And somehow they knew where John was coming from--maybe because they call it home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)
I don't believe in coincidences.
Side note but related: in another JohnA thread
http://www.911blogger.com/node/6094
Killtown--who I usually call ruder names --wrote me this:
"Thanks for defending my Shanksville research! ;-)"
Isn't that sweet? Let it be known this was our ONLY contact before Whoretown revealed his true colors.
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/2009/02/lying-with-dogs-at-waterloo.html
Barrett's a fan of KT or "katherine"...
______________________________________
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/
http://truthaction.org/forum/
http://www.911blacklist.org/
"And somehow they knew where
"And somehow they knew where John was coming from--maybe because they call it home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)"
What is hell is THIS supposed to mean?
and what is your point regarding Killtown?
Jenny - it appears to me here that you are making a lame attempt to link me to some of these characters who caused so much disruption to this movement - and this forum - in the past. These insinuations are not only taking on the character of forum stalking - it is totally off topic to this thread and possesses ALL of the characteristics that you claim to be fighting against.
You seem intent on dwelling on the past - and characters who attacked you - and ironically me. But i do not think you are contributing anything to this discussion or the movement by continuing to show up and throw accusations around.
"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA
"it appears to me here that
"it appears to me here that you are making a lame attempt to link me to some of these characters"
What makes you think that?
"it is totally off topic to this thread "
Actually I was responding to Julian's aside about blustery--see above. Sorry it upset you.
"by continuing to show up "
Where in particular? You make it sound like a common and recent event. Not true.
"What is hell "
Ninth Circle, to be precise.
"and what is your point regarding Killtown?"
I said it was an aside--if you think it has more significance than that, that's your affair.
______________________________________
http://coljennysparks.blogspot.com/
http://truthaction.org/forum/
http://www.911blacklist.org/
you said: "And somehow they
you said:
"And somehow they knew where John was coming from--maybe because they call it home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)"
that's pretty nasty - to say the least.
but why are you digging up threads about me form 2007 anyway?
isn't there something more productive you could do with your time and this thread? do you actually DO any 9/11 Truth activism? or are you just here to keep stirring up the shyte?
what about the ballot initiative?
got anything to say about that?
if you spent just a weee bit less time posting cryptic shyt about Killtown and other transgressors from 2007 - on threads that have nothing whatsoever to do with that topic - and spent more time actually trying to collaborate with people on CONSTRUCTIVE endeavors - you might actually discover that the world is not as dark a place as you make it out to be,..
and not everyone who disagrees with you is part of the vast right-wing killtown conspiracy
i for one agree with almost everything you say and stand for when it comes to the topic of internet stalking and the unlawful behavior that plagued this movement several years ago. but - i do NOT always agree with your methodology in dealing with it. and THIS would be a prime example. it smacks of carelessness.
We haven't lost this yet.
An initiative such as this would almost certainly require some legal assistance, and I remember reading the NYCCAN website saying just that. Funds were being set aside for just that purpose. (As well as to promote the initiative. I don't see how you could have better planning when operating on a shoestring budget.) As Victronix was saying, there are always going to be legal challenges in a referendum attempt.
Their plan was to get the necessary number of signatures and then obtain counsel and use the courts if necessary. OK, now it's necessary. I'm not going to throw in the towel just yet. I'm sending in more funds.
I expected this
The criminals know what's at stake if this measure gets on the ballot in November, and in my opinion they'll do anything they need to stop it. I fully expected this to happen, in fact I wouldn't doubt that the clerk was given instructions to refuse the petition at step one. Just my instincts are telling me this. I have no inside information whatsoever.
Paul Craig Roberts
I just got off the phone with Paul Craig Roberts. We spoke for about 30 minutes about NYC CAN - and the importance of this initiative.
He has committed to writing about this.
Jon and Kyle - he has asked me to provide some information which I am hoping the two of you can flesh out. Additionally - i have his direct phone number and email if we want to attempt a conference call.
"We need to move beyond conspiracy theories and slogans - and return to our roots. 9/11 Truth is no less than a constitution battle to ensure our rights as citizens to demand full and honest answers from our appointed representatives in Washington." JA
According to Kyle...
"a legal review by a lawyer will be forthcoming by Wednesday when we file our appeal" [...] "they did not certify the min. 30k registered voters out of the 52k that were filed on June 24th" [...] "a full release will be forthcoming as soon as we have a legal review and response prepared" [...] "Right now we need funds to hire the best lawyer to respond to the City's claims"
Now you know as much as I do.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
When collecting signatures
I have heard that it is best to work from the voter roles, and contact people based on that list, rather than randomly on the street. That way, there is a one to one correspondence between voters and signatures, and the names on the petitions match the voter rolls. One has the names and addresses, and only needs to get the signature. When one gathers signatures on the street, one runs the risk of complications. Generally, unless there is a perfect match between the voter rolls and the petitions, it is easy to throw signatures out as invalid. I have heard that one signature that is incorrect on one page can disqualify all the signatures on an entire page. I heard this from someone who tried to get on the ballot for a local race and was turned down, then gathered the signatures from the voter rolls, and got on the ballot without any trouble whatsoever. It's standard operating procedure to deny the petitions, unless they are perfect and they absolutely have to accept them. Thus, from what I have been told, the outcome is not really all that unexpected.
I went to a NYC voter initiative well over
a year ago. Les Jamieson seemed like he was in charge. It was my opinion & my friends that this initiative would GO NOWHERE, if he was calling the shot's.
Has that changed?
I have been told by Ted Walter...
That Les Jamieson is no longer affiliated with NYCCAN.org. Les is still promoting it apparently, but you can't control what people do.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
thanks, so is Ted Walter the lead guy?
.
Yes.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Jon
Do you think Walter's is professional & compotent enough, to see this through to the end?
I've never met the man...
He seems to legitimately care about this issue, so that, to me, is half the battle.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Unfortuntely, that's about 10%
of our battle. (imo)
We need results & we need intelligent, tactical & very capable people.
Hearsay or Fact?
pduveen stated:
"I have heard that one signature that is incorrect on one page can disqualify all the signatures on an entire page."
Is this part of the legitimate protocol of referendum proposal assessment? Does anyone know the answer to this question with certainty?
If it is part of the legitimate protocol of referendum proposal assessment, then didn't the organizers of the collection of signatures know that beforehand and inform the individuals who did the collecting of such?
Not Pages Of Signatures
For each name there is a multi-page form that explains the initiative and is not only signed, but must have name and address info so that the signature can be verified.
I just sent in 100 FRNs. I
I just sent in 100 FRNs.
I wonder if this is planned to see what NYCCAN guns have before it goes up the ladder?
A deliberate act of sabotage by NY City Clerk
As a supporter of NYC CAN, I received this news today by email and I was shocked when I first read it. On the other hand, being an international lawyer with some knowledge about comparable, international acts of sabotage in similar voting processes, this really wasn't that much of a surprise to me.... compare e.g. http://www.arso.org/06-3-1.htm (sabotage of the referendum on self-determination for the people of Western Sahara by the Moroccan government / secret services). Those in power will always use any means to maintain the political status quo to their advantage, even at the cost of an entire democratic process. This universal rule of power-politics applies as much to today's USA as it does to Morocco. (Remember also Bush's stolen elections.)
My advise to NYC CAN is short and simple: get the very best lawyers that you can trust 100% and GIVE THEM HELL!!!!
Cheers, VAB
(Amsterdam, the Netherlands)
I would be
concerned about the judge and who he/she might want to protect should they go to trial. It appears all of the bases have been covered.
I agree
This is likely a deliberate obstruction of the process. Consider what's at stake here for the criminals. They will do anything to stop this.
We need to do what 911 widows (and widowers) did
Go to the center of political power (in this case, NYC - City Hall area, I presume) with pictures of the dead, and shame them into relenting. This should only be done with the pictures of those whose survivors approve, of course. IMO, the most powerful pictorial message on a flyer would have pictures of both the deceased, as well as the surviving spouse (or parent or child) that is calling for accountability. A few sentences from each of the survivors could accompany their pictures.
Demonstrations such as this - which will put faces on the suffering that was endured that day - can simultaneously be used to gather MORE signatures.
I normally don't get into street demonstrations, but this is different.
Although I'm well behind 'schedule', I would urge all activists, of all stripes (not just 911 truthers) who have had to fight either city hall, or an 'invisible army' of lobbyists for whom selling out the public interest is their job, that there are easier ways to correct a corrupt government than getting on our collective knees and pleading and/or demanding. (What a frustrating exercise - pleading to somebody who is effectively deaf!). And that involves replacing the corrupt office-holders with better people. That cannot remain as hard to accomplish as everybody is brainwashed into believing. (I'm well aware that the overwhelming majority of Congressional seats are 'safe' - over 90% re-elected, IIRC - and that, due to gerrymandering, about 85% are safe for the party that previously held the seat, even if the incumbent dies or chooses not to run for re-election.) You can take a look at my web site, DemocracyABC.com, for some (admittedly sketchy) previews of what I feel is inevitable. *
Better still, I would direct your attention to ReinventingDemocracy.us. The central idea behind Reinventing Democracy is the formation of voting blocs of like-minded voters, leveraging online tools such as social networks, who can use their numerical clout either to wring concessions out of otherwise recalcitrant Congress critters, or else unite behind a viable challenger to the recalcitrant incumbent, or else unite behind a viable third party candidate. THIS IS A VERY EXCITING IDEA, WHICH HOLDS PROMISE FOR RAPID REPLACEMENT OF INCUMBENT OBSTRUCTIONISTS TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. I think the design and attendant strategy can be improved, and I have discussed this with the inventor, Nancy Bordier. You can refer, e.g., to our discussions here and here. Rolling out Reinventing Democracy will require some social investors, so if you know any, please forward them there, also.
When the voting bloc technology is developed, I predict that initially, it will catch on faster and more dramatically at numerous levels of local government than it will at the national level. That's not a particularly difficult prediction to make - for local governments, one can recruit for a local voting bloc that targets a local government position by just inviting your neighbors and friends over for coffee and explaining what you're up to. I.e., you don't even need the internet, initially. In terms of NYC CAN, the point is that, if the city government continues to obstruct us, we will (hopefully) have the means available within a year or so to start throwing the bums out of office, even given a severe disadvantage in terms of campaign war chests. So, PLEASE don't despair if they thwart us in the coming months. More options will become available, as time goes by. If you live in NYC, start thinking about honorable people who can run for office. Maybe you are so inclined?
* Wrt my web site, if you know ASP.NET MVC, or web design, and want to help, that would be great, also. :-)
http://www.DemocracyABC.org
http://www.therealnews.com
http://www.pdamerica.org
Raise hell at City Hall
A demonstration at City Hall with the Family members and First responders Front-Center is in order. We need to publicize and promote this thing anyway... All the great civil rights and justice struggles involved some highly-publicized demonstrations. Get a couple of hundred people together and make some news!
I agree with this 110%
The backup plan needs to be initiated - pronto! This will draw attention to the issue (including media) and will show them we mean business. Wasn't it the demonstration at the NY police station that helped get Alex Jones released? Let's do it people!
What Is Privacy Status of Petitions?
What is the privacy status of the petitions? And what would happen if they were posted online for full disclosure? A strategy of this kind seems like it could go both ways, with some signers possibly feeling their privacy had been betrayed. But without courage, there is no chance of progress.
This thread...
Which is a call for help, has turned into something else. Something that does not best represent the interests of the NYCCAN initiative. Are all of the threads going to be like this? I think it's a shame. John Feal often says to me when I bring up some of the "bs" in this movement, "Jon, people are dying, I don't have time for it." He's right. People are dying. Our country is dying. We have the key to our salvation in 9/11 Truth. Can we please not lose sight of that? Thank you.
Also, did anyone REALLY believe this would be easy? After 8 years of BULLSH*T, did you really think that? It would have been nice, sure, but it's not realistic.
I can't even get DEMOCRACYnow to cover this extremely DEMOCRATIC endeavor.
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? Do we deserve to know how and why 9/11 happened?
Jon, Good summary statement.
"...did anyone REALLY believe this would be easy?" --Jon Gold
Let's rally behind NYCCAN.
Amen, Tom
Time to organize ourselves, utilize our resources, and put a solid step forward. Though this thread may have veered from its intended path, theres a lot of great ideas coming from it and I believe that quick responsible action is the best possible course.
________________________
“The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government.” -Martin Luther King, Jr.
http://www.ubuntu.com
Yes!
Our enemies are mass murderers. They control the military, government, media, and banking. There are dozens of ways they can brush off a petition or referendum. Still, we can use this moment to our great advantage -- we win when we take action. Ultimately, the campaign for 9/11 Truth will succeed if we spread persuasive information on a massive scale. Only the most convincing, science-based arguments will serve as foundation to meaningful social and political transformation. People crave credible information. Speak loudly about the science behind this movement, while simultaneously casting the major media as corrupt manipulators.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Can you ask for assistance from Councilman Simcha Felder?
Simcha Felder is the Councilman who signed the petition and promised full support. Could he be any support at this stage?
http://nyccan.org/councilman.php
I'll check
I'll check back with my source.
What's with Lawyers for 911
What's with Lawyers for 911 Truth? Where are they?
Also, over at patriotsquestion911.com we should go over to the media page, recognize those that have a microphone, and let it be known, and of course, they should do some speaking up for us. Shaming those putting up barriers, then, we, by using those willing family members should have some impact. Of course the more it is conveyed ahead of time, that family members who have signed, and expecting actual democratic processes, will surely get momentum moving against those putting up barriers. No doubt that, if Mike Malloy for example, would be saying that such and such night we are going to be having on the family members of those who died on 911, with sufficient pre-alerting of the night, andeach individual bringing a significant point (of which there are many) that shows the absurdity of the government's cartoon version of "reality", We all should start perusing the aforementioned site, and then sending requests. This has to be made public knowledge, loud and clear. Those family members have clout!
The most severe form of learning disorders are owned by those that "already know everything."
Has anyone contacted Senator Gillibrand's office yet?
Senators, even freshman Senators, have an uncanny way of getting their way with recalcitrant city bureaucrats.
I believe Sen. Shumer has also pretended to support the NYCCAN effort and he should now be called on that, as well.
I would suggest a visit to their offices by some of the family members of 9/11 victims who are also New York residents, accompanied by members of the press, of course.
As for the ongoing battle on this thread, when this initiative was first presented to members of our group in the SF bay area I was not at all impressed with the wording of the document or the strategic planning that was being presented along with it. While my concerns were shared by a number of people in our group and we expressed them at the time, most of the group signed on to support it and others, like myself, agreed to remain neutral and see where it went. Well, the NYCCAN group has done an amazing job with what they have and should be congratulated for that and I think this effort clearly deserves to be seen through to its end, whatever that may be. Lessons have been, and will be, learned, no matter what happens. I believe that two aphorisms are appropriate here:
Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
We have to know that we will take hits in this game, brothers and sisters, gain strength and learn lessons from them, and move on with renewed dedication and determination.
[I will also add that we should always dot the i's and cross the t's whenever we engage with the government, we have to be near perfect when playing their game or we will only set ourselves up to lose.]
Know that the truth will prevail, and that those who stand with the truth will prevail with it.
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
I agree that Gillibrand
can be an ally.
Manny Badillo& Daniel Sunjata seem to be the most sound NYC advocates. If they can bring in more responsible, emotionaly stable people, this initiative can go the distance.
I wonder if AE911 has any NYC architects & engineers?
Many NY Architects
Several architects from NYC and the boroughs have signed the AE911Truth petition.
http://www.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php
It's very likely they may not even be aware of this NYCCAN initiative. How best to contact them?
Thanks for optimism LeftWright
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
where are the lawyers for 911 truth?
good question. i signed on with them some months ago and inquired if there was anything i could do. i was told there was nothing going on at the time, but that i would be notified if they needed assistance. looks like now is the time, but i have not heard anything yet.
what's needed now is a lawyer with experience in petition matters to step forward (from the lawyers for 911 truth or elsewhere) and lead the legal effort. one has been promised (in the original post above) but as has been pointed out in the comments, that should have been part of the nyccan plan from the beginning. ted walter has been doing all he can, but has been severely hampered by not having a legal team behind him from day 1, in my view.
9/11
I am a government lawyer (31 years - feds, city, county - West Coast) and tried to sign up on the 9/11 Lawyers' website and could not do so. We desperately need a forum at that site to discuss matters like this one.
Question
IF there is a rejection, can there be a retry? How many times? I doubt it's impossible to collect enough signatures.
Forge ahead!
I tried to send and email to Lawyers for 911 Truth in regards to this, and Hotmail, my email source kept saying L911T.com was not a valid email address. What's up with that?
There should be absolutely NO talk of giving up.
Consider who all is on our side now. We the majority of the population of NYC. We have folks like Bowman, and many other very powerful individuals. We have the majority of this country recognizing the stench of the "oh-fish-all" story.
How is it that a clerk can put a barricade up? It can not hold.
Also, whoever is screaming to stop the investigation, is also identifying themselves as complicit. Few now among the population still cling to the government B.S. Those yelling to stop it, are saying, "I'm involved."
This is just a minor hurdle. We really are quite far along towards the finish line.
We need to get the most powerful men and women within the movement to join up and confront NYC government. There are more than just a few. We've got BIG numbers all the way around, and we've got science on our side.
We are almost there.
Many many thanks to NYCCAN. Words are insufficient to express our gratitude for all the work you have done and continue to do!
The most severe form of learning disorders are owned by those that "already know everything."
Lawyers' fine print
See this from the very bottom of lawyersfor911truth dot com home page.
"Currently, Lawyers for 9/11 Truth is not engaging in any formal legal efforts as a group. Therefore, requests for legal assistance will probably go unanswered at this time."
Mech Engr P.E.
It appears
we need "pro bono" lawyers for 9/11 truth ;-)
Big hint:
It's a very big thing I have in common with our wonderful new "Change We Can Believe In" (TM) president.
I hope that helps, if not outright gives it away. ;-)
Okay.
Hussein.
Remember when?
Dorothy shows up at the Wizard's place with the broom of the wicked witch of the west. The wizard says not so fast! Did our heroes give up? No way! It was time to get in that old wizard's face and make him keep his promises. Let's give them heck over this and make it happen! Bang your chains and count your change.
Removed by poster
Comment Removed
Yesterday disappointing, today a new day!
This morning I was still bummed out about the NYCCAN news from yesterday. Then my co-worker Bob came in and told me he received an e-mail of the KMPH Fox 26 interview with Richard Gage that had come full circle from the letter he sent to a different party. This lifted my spirits. The KMPH Fox 26 interview, with WTC7 collapsing next to a known controlled demolition, really works. The Fox affiliate gives this incredible interview credibility, they show WTC 7, and many other important questions are answered. Let's take advantage of our advantages. I have been sending this link to structural engineering firms along with the "29 structual engineers cite" article.
Correction
I checked with my source, who said: "The whole page is thrown out if the witness does not fill in the form correctly. The witness is the one who collects the signatures. They will line out the voter signatures when challenged for each voter." My original statement was not accurate, and I apologize for that.
To pduveen 7/28, 5:57 pm
I suppose you are referring to pduveen on Mon, 07/27/2009 - 6:20pm.
Yes
But the overall gist of my comments remains. It is exceedingly difficult for a petition to be filed successfully. We have not yet heard, unless I missed something, WHY the New York City Clerk or whoever, denied the petitions. We have not heard the details of exactly what happened. There is no way of judging the situation without that information. I hope it will be forthcoming.
Even if this petition is not successful, I do believe that whatever deficiencies there are in it can be remedied, if not on time for this year's election cycle, then for next year's.
From Brisbane, Australia: please fight this one all the
Please fight this one all the way.
For my part I have donated US$50 (that is if PayPal worked properly) and have republished the story at http://candobetter.org/node/1432
Also, I think this story should be made sticky in order to make others appreciate how urgent this is.
http://candobetter.org/911truth